Hyphenated name upon marriage boot



During the Byzantine period the imperial province of Syria Palaestina was reorganized into: Palaestina Prima Palaestina Secunda,[27] and Palaestina Salutaris.[27] Following the Muslim conquest place s that were in use by the Byzantine administration generally continued to be used in Arabic.[3][28] The use of the “Palestine” became common in Early Modern English,[29] was used in English and Arabic during the Mutasarrifate of Jerusalem In the 20th century the was used by the geopolitical entities commonly known as “Mandatory Palestine” and the “State of Palestine” Both incorporated geographic regions from the land commonly known as Palestine into a new state whose territory was d Palestine. >> Robert in Israel: You want the dispossession of the Jews to remain permanent … Jewish citizens of countries around the world are not dispossessed: They are citizens of their respective homelands Palestinians driven from their homes and lands and awaiting as refugees the realization of their right to return to their respective homes and lands – they are dispossessed And Zio-supremacists like you want that dispossession to remain permanent. Please note that in terms of the debate over national claims it really doesn’t matter if Hebrew is older than Arabic or more authentically Canaanite because that’s not what the debate is really about It really comes down to whether or not the Jews are a nation entitled to the same rights as other indigenous peoples or not I understand that you intuitively feel that we are not a nation but do try to be more objective when dealing with purely academic questions That includes eschewing highly politicized academicians who themselves should not be in academia given their lack of objectivity. What else can I say? The borders were not made up and yes the Holy Land is the homeland of the Jewish nation and has been for at least 3,300 years But in attempt to break the gridlock on this point consider this: the term Palestine began in the late Roman era as a Latin term based on the Hebrew “Paleshet” Now the letter ‘P’ does not exist in Arabic hence the need to change the pronunciation to Falastin(e) with an ‘F’ How could Palestine be the homeland of a nation that didn’t invent the of its land and can’t even pronounce it correctly? This is not a trivial point It would be like if the Jews claimed China or Chile as their homeland and yet there’s no ‘CH’ sound in Hebrew Why do you deny the Jews the right to their homeland? Isn’t that racist? “Robert in Israel Could you please provide us with a map of this so called Jewish Homeland One that is recognised by the International community. This is the hard-nosed business of peace-making Both sides have to give up something they don’t want to give up Even if one side has something they shouldn’t have to. Indeed Negotiations mean only one thing Israel wants the Palestinians to forgo legal rights so Israel can keep what is not legally Israeli Negotiations are Israel’s ONLY legal way out of the quagmire it has purposefully created over the last 67 years The Jewish state cannot afford to adhere to the law Under the law it is required to withdraw from ALL non-Israeli territories and take all its illegal settlers and pay astronomical reparations for 67 yrs of belligerence ” if a Palestinian organization simply states that it believes the Palestinian Arabs have a right to self-determination but seeks a permanent peace with Israel then I have no problem negotiating. Screw Israeli “concerns”! You have posted a stinking pile of bs utter nonsense Do you profess belief in the Grimms fairy tale version of history in your comment? If so you belong in a secure hospital If not you need to go and learn real history There never was any major expulsion The Muslim and Christian Palestinians are the descendants of Jews who converted down the centuries with some inter as people migrated around the wider region There were significant Jewish populations all over the ancient world from well before the supposed expulsion – not least in places like Rome itself as well as Baghdad You incomers are likely descendants of Khazars with some inter with those populations! This site isn’t about China or Tibet so if you are so bothered about that issue I suggest you find one. I addressed it elsewhere… Robert… you do know that “Jew” is an English word do you? DON’T mix that up with the of the region that term got mixed up recently Ioudaios meant not only Judeans and not all of the Judeans were Jews! There is a whole debate about the term “ioudaios” Ioudaios before and after “Religion” by Annette Yoshiko Reed /ioudaios-religion-annette-yoshiko-reed/ or: On the Meaning of the Term “Jew” in Greco-Roman Inscriptions Ross S Kraemer Also what was considered by Zionist as “Jewish” and “Arab” changed in time because at first “Arab/Muslim- Palestinians” were seen as descendants of ancient peoples (for example the work by Ben Gurion and Ben Zvi from 1918 a Yiddish book title: Eretz Yisrael in the Past and Present) Later it changed when Palestinians didn’t accept the Zionist policy and narratives As you can see what is called “Jewish” and “Arab” is very fluid and the same goes for ancient times- today lots of traditional narration about ancient times is now being reconsidered basing on new evidence. Your last point was about why the Jews didn’t start going back in large numbers until the early 19th century There is no one answer but life for Jews in Arab lands in general and the Holy Land in particular was extremely hard and the general trend was for Jews to move away towards Europe which is why most Jews ended up there rather than further south Strict Muslim law did not allow Jews to purchase land to build new synagogues or even repair them without special permission There was an oppressive poll tax (the “jizya”) and other decrees that made Europe attractive Perhaps just as influential there was abject poverty in the Middle East and corrupt government that harmed everyone and especially in the. /2013/02/chief-Anne-Richardson-With- With regard to the terminology it was argued that the Order favoured the term ‘citizenship’ over ‘nationality’ as it constituted a “fundamental difference which exists in many Oriental countries between allegiance to the state which is citizenship and membership of a nationality within the state which is a matter of race or religion” But while it is true that the Citizenship Order used the term ‘citizenship’ in most of its articles the term ‘nationality’ was also utilized for the same purpose Employing both terms was consistent with Article 7 of the Palestine Mandate which used the two terms synonymously Moreover as it has been evident in several cases Palestinian courts did not make a clear distinction between. For some reason my post got printed above your question. Hey Everyone! it’s okay now it’s all okay Robert has just told us that China is even worse than Israel Phew! What a relief We can all stop now Mondoweiss can pack up and everyone can just forget about the Palestinians forever How stupid of all of us wasting all of this time needlessly Let’s all go and have a fight with China instead Gee wow thanks Robert! Another paraphrase ‘How dare you criticise me for keeping all of these victims locked up in my cellar how dare you even try and discuss this issue in any way when you know full when that the Chinese guy across the road has even more victims locked up in the basement than I have! And they’ve been down there even longer than mine! You’re only criticising me because I’m a Jewish rapist’ The everything that Israel has to lose is everything it has stolen I’m really not going to work up a worry over Israel losing illegal gains Looks good on them And hopefully they pay a huge price for over half a century of theft and human rights abuses In terms of Israel itself… No it will not lose a thing It’s military might will protect it from that and again that’s how it should be. Not Always Working is a sister site to Not Always Right added to the network in 2012 In a direct contrast to Not Always Right Not Always Working focuses on tales of incompetent lazy and sometimes even malicious workers Bad employees horrible bosses and managers and the occasional cool person can be found here As always take care when looking through the : Due to a restructuring of the entire NAR site network the hyperlinks below may or may not work anymore You need to review the entire comment policy we don’t promote dialogue denying the holocaust nor nakba denial we don’t debate whether israel has committed ethnic cleansing you can’t say “there is no ethnic cleansing” (your words) on this site when israel blatantly steals land demolishes homes builds jewish only settlements on palestinian land after having expelled palestinians while the judaization of jerusalem is in full swing you can’t do that here you have to get creative if you want to insert racist ideas seeded with or from this lie in order to disguise it otherwise we won’t publish it so my advise to you would be to review the comment policy and especially avoid violating the rules surrounding the most inflammatory accusations and denials Any Times reporter who actually reported on Israel’s neve ending efforts to wipe out the Palestinians whould soon be canned Faster if the reporter were Jewish. The author asks a very legitimate question: Why should the Palestinians have to make concessions The answer is that while the Palestinians are said to have nothing to lose the Israelis have *everything* to lose And therefore if the Palestinians expect Israel to risk its entire future by giving land and control to them they need to make concessions that ensure that the Palestinian entity (state or territory) does not constitute a major threat to the security of Israel. I’ll retract this “The fact that Israel didn’t even exist as a legal entity at the time the map was drawn seems to escape you.” – See more at: /2015/01/reporter-palestinians-concessions#comment-736275 Apologies I was looking at another map Anyhow it’s clear that there is no chance of having a real dialogue with you But one good thing came out of this exchange: you are an excellent example of how anti-Zionism is a form of unjustified group hatred (commonly called “racism”) Yes you may not necessarily be an antisemite but being a rabid anti-Zionist isn’t one whit better And in using a term like “ziodrool” it’s clear where your heart is at Actually one other good thing came out of this: I learned the word “eleemosynary” (Art 16) But in case you think I’m only focused on Jewish suffering have you never studied the case of Tibet? Occupied and annexed by China since 1950 (after earlier sustained invasions) over 1.2 million Tibetans have been murdered — all non-combatants All but a handful of monasteries and shrines remain of the more than 6,000 that existed in 1950 China has continued to flood Tibet with Chinese settlers such that today ethnic Chinese are about 60% of the Tibetan population And political and religious rights remain highly restricted for ethnic Tibetans It should be noted that the Tibetans of course never used terrorism and never fired missiles at Chinese towns and villages But the world and the UN are mostly silent because no one with power really cares and everyone wants Chinese business And that’s just one case of modern occupation There are plenty of others also far worse than anything the Palestinians have even claimed. Uh huh … As Palestinian citizens per Article 7 . /20th_century #art7 “It should also be noted that UN Resolution 181 which allowed for the Jews and Arabs to declare their respective states derived its force from the guidelines set forth in the Mandate document.” Care to quote where in UNGA res 181 … thx … I’ll wait One cannot be independent while under any form of control by another party Under the Mandate the British administered Palestine (for Palestinians) It was not within the mandate to form two states and a corpus seperatum The Mandate for Palestine had to end before either party could declare independence “And 181 explicitly refers to “the Jewish State”” /wiki/1834_Looting_Of_Safed Also the fault of those awful post-1897 Zionists? Not to mention the problem that you so freely just link Jews from Palestine to those from all over the world (especially Europe) We all know how Zionist used even genetic studies to prove they have connections but those projects also connected not-Jews (depending who they choose as a Jews for reference) to that region… so those projects are no help for the Zionists whatsoever….Zionists use only Jewish tradition (well to be more specific the image what that traditions is from their own perspective… Jews from Ethiopia or even Jews from Middle East had/have other visions of it- read about it) to link them to the ancient history of the land- TYPICAL NATIONALIST DISCOURSE… Even the Israeli Government used the term “occupied” way back in 1948 Jerusalem Declared Israel-Occupied City- by Israeli Government Proclamation 12 Aug 1948 And the Laws and Customs of War on Land (Hague IV); Octo Art 42 SECTION III tells us that “Territory is considered occupied when it is actually placed under the authority of the hostile army” ” read the preamble and articles 2 & 4 of the League of Nations Mandate for Palestine which became the basis for the creation of Israel” Hizbullah is mostly … an evil pseudo-Muslim (“Islamist”) organization but also they are Iranian Persians and enjoy little support from the native Lebanese Arabs lol wow where did you come up w/this hezbollah is not arab and enjoy little support from the native Lebanese? are you aware there is a hezbollah christian factor too have you ever been to lebanon? you sound like a nut and i didn’t even read the rest of your comment Oh and finally Robert all of your continual colonial activities and continued land theft and all of your several hundred thousand nutty settlers have made the 2 state solution totally impossible anyway so at some point it’s going to be one state for everyone And you know Robert the gracious dignified humble and incredible people known as the Palestinians will accept it and they will live with you in peace side by side even after all of the unspeakable things you and yours have done to them over the decades But your brain simply cannot believe that because you are programmed and brainwashed to be a racist paranoid supremacist who does not consider the Palestinians to have the same value as Jews It’s as simple. It’s abundantly clear that you’re intellect is subservient to your hatred So it’s basically a waste of time talking to you not to mention having to put up with your abuse Besides you get so angry that your logic circuits fail you Like quoting that Art 7 about the “Palestinian citizenship” when in context it is clearly talking about the Mandate period not beyond The goal of the mandate was to create “such political administrative and economic conditions as will secure the establishment of the Jewish national home as laid down in the preamble.” (Art 2) There’s only one legitimate reading of that and its a pro-Zionist reading. Late Antiquity period Late Roman Empire (Byzantine) period Notitia Dignitatum of CE showing Dux Palestinae[92] Madaba map extract showing “οροι Αιγυπτου και Παλαιστινης” (the “border of Egypt and Palestine) If I were only dialoguing with you I’d go point by point but there are a dozen others and there’s no way I can respond to all the cut-n-paste pre-prepared material you’re posting Try going for 1 or 2 key points That said yes I noticed the stuff about the term “ioudaios” but it’s a trivial point in the larger debate for even if the term is purely geographical it merely means that modern Israel is maintaining the tradition of having a Jewish state that allows for a large non-Jewish population on which it bestows the same civil (but not national) rights it does to its Jewish citizens Contrast that with the almost unanimous position of the Palestinian negotiators who demand that their state be emptied of. Did you ever give a moment’s thought to the fact that the Palestinians have always had *plenty* to lose? Because of their (and your) inability to make concessions that address Israeli concerns the Palestinians continue to lose valuable assets such as security prosperity and territory You can’t tell me they have the same amount of these as they did 50 years ago And they certainly have been losing valuable time as well Right now the Palestinians continue to demand that there be two states: one on the east which is 100% Arab and one on the west which is over 50% Arab Do you really think any country would agree to such an arrangement if put in Israel’s situation? Talknic you asked the following question: “Mmmm… I wonder what was meant by Palestinian citizenship per Article 7 of the LoN Mandate for Palestine And what was meant in the same document by Palestinian Nationality Law and; why was the reference to Palestine’s provisional recognition included in the League of Nations Mandate for Palestine first line?” I already know that you won’t accept my analysis or that of anyone suspected of the Z word So I’ll quote a very scholarly article by a distinguished Palestinian Arab professor Mutaz M Qafisheh At the bottom of this post is his very impressive (professionally and nationalistically) CV Here’s the link to the full article plus key paragraphs that answer your question (the whole article has numbered paragraphs – I nice idea I. Dear Zofia I can only imagine just how much time energy and effort you must have put into these replies Your knowledge in this area is simply vast I’ve read through it all once and will read it all again Thank you for all of the references too Unfortunately it might be wasted on the individual who it was actually intended for as I have a feeling he is way too programmed to accept any real facts or actual reality But I live in hope and would love to be wrong! But regardless of the original intention this huge store of reading material is now up for all to read and learn from which can only be positive I would also like to thank Talknic for his excellent factual comments which I have also learned much from (and many more great commentators I didn’t mention!) All of Israel’s war have been fought in territories the Israeli Government itself claimed on May 22nd 1948 were “outside the State of Israel” … “in Palestine” ” if the Palestinians expect Israel to risk its entire future by giving land and control to them” Israel expecting to be able to illegally acquire other folks territory for its own self defense is A) Illegal and; B) idiotic and; C) a cause for and of war and; D) the victims have a legal right to use violence against Israeli forces in order to restore their territory Put simply states even if Jewish cannot illegally acquire other folk’s territory for their own self defense. You’re hilariously funny The Palestinians are willing to accept only 22% of their legal and rightful territories for peace with Israel /e9p5s8u2yhcd Israel has offered NO THING ever “Israel definitely prosecutes Jews who commit hate crimes against Arabs and anti-racism is the norm” Its the exception and only ever eventuates after huge outcry “As you can see my insistence on peace education is not trivial; it lies at the core of the conflict as it stands today “ We can see you’re promoting trivial nonsense over fact and legality Pjdude: the term means the samething its always meant a person who resides in palestine exactly regardless of religion robert: You ought to check your facts before you lie …The term “Palestinians” was most often used to describe the Jews who lived in Palestine your supporting link to the 2009 book “A History of the Jewish People in the Time of Jesus Christ Volume II” doesn’t support an idea or notion it was “most often used to describe the Jews who lived in Palestine” plus it’s lost on no one you called pjdude a liar and then repeated what his allegation! /pmwiki /Website/NotAlwaysWorking Following Website / Not Always Working. Why? They are not legally obliged to concede ANY of their legal rights! Meanwhile Israel IS legally obliged to end the occupation withdraw from all non-Israeli territories stop illegal settlements take all its illegal settlers back to Israel pay compensation Your land swaps are swapping what is now Palestinian territory for what is now Palestinian territory so Israel can keep what is now Palestinian territory It’s a non starter ‘offered’ by a thief Unfortunately Israel has never been able to afford compensation for its theft and settlement of non-Israeli territory and now after 67 years of building illegal facts on the ground would be sent bankrupt were it to now adhere to the law That is why Israel insists on negotiations in order to circumvent the laws it has trashed. Please direct me to at least one well-documented case of fabrication or serious mis-translation at MEMRI and/or PMW And let’s focus on the clips I posted links to For the sake of argument assume for a moment that the clips are accurate Would they change your opinion even just a little? My reply remains the same You want the dispossession of the Jews to remain permanent but provide no justification for wanting to continue our repression And you can’t see anything wrong with Palestinians calling for genocide of the Jews So there’s not much to discuss is there? Again watch that video I posted and if you feel that the speaker and the listeners who shout “amen” are unjustified even by what you believe are Israel’s crimes then maybe there’s something to discuss. First I encourage you to read my response below to bornajoo Second your basic argument is that Israel has to make concessions because it is a big thief But we don’t see it that way In fact many of us see it exactly the opposite The Arabs maintained the occupation of the Jewish homeland and our dispossession and torture on and off for 1,400 years and the Arabs who live here now are settlers So why should we give them anything? So if we’re talking justice the Jews should get everything But if we’re talking about how to reach an agreement both sides have to recognize each other’s concerns Could I feel secure with a Palestinian state in the West Bank and Gaza Strip? Sure Here are my minimal needs. Hi RoHa Just came across this comment of yours from January in my inbox You would be right if being Jewish were defined strictly by beliefs But as you know all too well many Jews reject the religion outright while strongly affirming their Jewishness Ever met a Christian who rejects Jesus and the NT? Ever meet a Muslim who hates Muhammad and the Quran? Illogical right? But there are many Jews who reject and even hate Moses and the Torah So how come they and everyone else considers them to. I think it’s cute that Zionists always demand that the people with NO power must agree that the people with ALL the power can. Bce: Aristotle Meteorology “Again if as is fabled there is a lake in Palestine such that if you bind a man or beast and throw it in it floats and does not sink this would bear out what we have said They say that this lake is so bitter and salt that no fish live in it and that if you soak clothes in it and shake them it cleans them.” This is understood by scholars to be a reference to the. And while I prefer to keep these posts short I can’t just ignore your comment about the Palestinians suffering the longest most brutal occupation in history Seriously? To say that to a member of a nation whose homeland was occupied for over 2,000 years and whose people both in and out of the homeland were butchered by the millions takes a special kind of chutzpah Hmm I guess that “bornajoo” moniker is literally correct! But how does that give Modern European and American Jews any rights there? If you claim that some of those Europeans are descended from the people who live there and the rights come from a combination of religion and descent from previous residents then you will find there are equally good non-Jewish claimants Don’t forget it is also where the Christian religion originated and the ancestors of Palestinian Christians have lived there for (on your showing) 1400 years at least Palestine was a Christian Kingdom for a while so there are non-Palestinian Christians in Europe who are descended from Christians who were born in that Kingdom They too will have a claim Now you are much more sensible when you start arguing for peace education You could start with all those crazy rabbis who incite violence against Arabs “right now the Palestinians continue to demand that there be two states: one on the east which is 100% Arab and one on the west which is over 50% Arab ” Yeah except that they don’t They have said that they want it Israeli free A perfectly reasonable demand give over a half century of abuse and theft by Israelis. Talknic do you mean you want proof that influential and respected Palestinians openly call for the genocide of. Oh and by the way the Chinese occupation began 2 years later Israel first occupied Palestine in 1948 when you expelled over 750,000 Palestinians These events are referred to as The Nakba Oh and just in case you haven’t noticed (I forgive you as you are new here) that this particular website is called “Mondoweiss The War of Ideas in the Middle East” If you really are concerned about the issues in Tibet you might be on the wrong website Just thought I’d point that out in case you didn’t notice. “yes Israel has to give up something But they won’t do it without at least the appearance of the PA doing the same What will that be? Forget rhetoric and supply something tangible.” If we do does that make Israel a moral beacon and a light unto the nations? Or maybe just a blackmailer? Such high aspirations you have for the Jewish State But of course the chance to sound like a thug in a cheap gangster movie (“Forget rhetoric and supply something tangible” Blow it out your ass Jesset) is one a Zionist never misses That’s what makes it all worth it Oh that and Holocaust Mad-Libs. So all your arguments are based on myths symbols lack of knowledge etc You write about maximalist visions of Palestinians? And what are those? in addition to the borders (as Talknic wrote about many times) that allegedly Israel officially agreed on Israel took additional 12% – ILLEGALLY The same in 1967 and till this day they continue to build more illegal settlements You even add some biblical visions of the borders and you dare talk about the maximalist visions of Palestinians? How can you be taken seriously? .org/discover /1509511?sid=21105037794891&uid=3738840&uid=2&uid=70&uid=4&uid=2129 It is. Pjdude no Arabs in Palestine whether the modern ones or the various Arab and Turkish Muslim tribes who conquered Palestine in the past have ever had sovereignty here Yet I don’t here you saying that since there was never a Palestinian state here their claims are just a myth or simply unjustified So what gives? BTW I didn’t understand when you said that you would “let me include the borders of Judah” Do you mean that you think the Jerusalem region and the south of the country should belong to Israel?      D - K  @ Robert in Israel “You completely missed my point about Israel having everything to lose” You don’t have a point about Israel having everything to lose The Palestinians don’t claim anything Israeli They ask for less than their legal rights and that Israel adhere to the law “We want to live in security whether you like it or not.” Israel’s leaders should have thought of that before they embarked on illegally acquiring illegally annexing illegally settling territories the Israeli Government claimed on May 22nd 1948 were “outside the State of Israel” … “in Palestine” These would be the most just borders However if the Palestinians made the concessions I’ve written about elsewhere I would support a permanent Palestinian state on the Jewish homeland And ditto for southern Lebanon and Taba Justice can take a back seat to peace if there is sufficient justice in the compromise between the two That said no borders even with Israel getting just Tel Aviv will bring peace without a commitment to peace education It starts there and since education in the Middle East is intricately wound up with Islam there can only be peace when Islam undergoes the same revolution that Christianity underwent in the 19th and 20th centuries But that’s for another discussion I hope I’ve answered your question clearly. >> Robert in Israel: Don’t you get it?? The Palestinians who have American citizenship don’t plan on giving up their dream of returning to Palestine They can dream all they want The fact is if they are from the geographic region comprising Partition-borders Israel and are up to n generations removed from it they are entitled to the same right of preferential immigration to Israel as any other Israeli up to n generations removed from the geographic region comprising Partition-borders Israel (Same applies to the geographic region comprising Partition-borders “Palestine” (or whatever it is to be called.) >> Sorry I’ll never agree to that absurd double standard There is no double-standard >> Every generation of Jews whether in the Holy Land or in the Diaspora always dreamed of the restoration of Jewish sovereignty in the. >> Robert in Israel: Or of the Arabs to live in Arabia… If you mean “Or of the Jewish Saudi Arabians to live in Saudi Arabia” correct >> BTW calling us “Jews” means we are Judaeans so the Land of Judah is where we should go No calling you “Jews” means that either you converted to Judaism or are descended from someone who converted to Judaism It’s a religion-based appellation Your nationality is defined by the second part of the (i.e American Israeli Canadian German etc.). I do appreciate your (Robert in Israel’s) response to my query about where you think what constitutes the borders of Israel I will consider just a few of your points “Ideally I would want the world to recognize the definitive and minimalist Biblical borders which on the West is the Mediterranean Sea as south as Wadi El-Arish (“the River of Egypt” which is NOT the Nile) and as far north as the Litani River in southern Lebanon ” When you say “ideally” I hope you are implying that this is a wish and not something set in concrete because that takes a big chunk out of Lebanon I know you think that since Jews once lived there Israel claim it but that way lies madness What about the people who were there before the Jews? Seems to me their claim would be even better by that logic And do we really want to redraw maps today based on how things were 2000 3000 or 4000 years ago? Why stop there? Why not 5,000. Exactly! And they do use that line just hypocritically since they are trying to do to us we they (falsely) claim we did to them That’s why in the PLO charter there is a paragraph specifically stating that the Jews are not a nation because they know all too well that if we are a nation then the Arab invasion of 629 CE could not have won Palestine for the Arabs nor that of any later Arab or non-Arab Muslim group. Display Show Spoilers Night Vision Sticky Header Wide Load updateDesktopPrefs(); .push(function() { proper_display('tvtropes_side_1'); }); Crucial Browsing “btw calling us “Jews” means we are Judaeans so the Land of Judah is where we should go.” No it doesn’t It means you are followers of the Jewish religion or descended from such Yes the religion gets its from the place but that no more implies that you should go to Judea than being a Welsh Methodist implies that you should go to Wales or being Hindu implies that you should go. “the ICC cannot step in when national investigations have taken place or are ongoing ” hopknee Nonsense “As a court of last resort any ICC investigation will defer to national proceedings by reference to the principle of complementarity In order then to protect its nationals from possible ICC prosecution Israel must itself undertake timely genuine and independent investigations into the crimes of its nationals in the “State of Palestine.” /content/what-would-happen-if-palestine-joined-international-criminal-court/13783 Note! timely genuine and independent (not. @ Robert in Israel “Ideally I would want the world to recognize the definitive and minimalist Biblical borders…. For Robert’s comment above (no reply option showing there) “It’s relevant if you want to correctly predict how we are likely to react to various actions A thief who believes he’s a thief acts one way while those who believe they are the ones who have been robbed will act quite differently ” Completely agree with you there Robert The road to hell must be littered with thieves & murderers & genocidal maniacs & terrorists & torturers & racists who saw themselves as blameless or misunderstood Often they actually got away with their crimes (in this life anyway.) Sometimes regardless of their personal conviction they are without guilt the accused are held accountable based on the evidence and it is left to others to render judgment. What is for certain is that when the Arabs finally came on the scene in 629 CE the “Palestine” (actually “Palestina”) was firmly entrenched in the Roman-Byzantine system of governance and it was from there that the Arabs learned the just as every other. Drawing up the framework of nationality Article 30 (BELOW) of the Treaty of Lausanne: ‘Palestine’ was not mentioned in the Treaty of Lausanne let alone Palestinian nationality However there was no need to mention these terms because the Treaty provided generic provisions applicable to all territories detached from Turkey including Palestine This 1923 Treaty differed from the draft Treaty of Sèvres (1920) which introduced a separate regime for each ex-Turkish territory with special reference to Palestinian nationality in Article 129 Instead a similar clause to the latter article was embodied as already detailed in Article 7 of the Palestine Mandate Therefore with regard to Palestinian nationality the Mandate and the Treaty of Lausanne complemented. Chapter II is devoted to nationality under the Ottoman Empire as the status of ‘Ottoman subject’ was required for the automatic acquisition of Palestinian nationality when the latter nationality was first initiated Chapter V which will clarify the status of ‘natural Palestinians’ or those individuals whose Ottoman nationality was automatically replaced by Palestinian nationality the enforcement of the 1925 Palestinian Citizenship Order The status of Ottoman subjects who were habitually residing in Palestine (and who constituted the bulk of the Palestinian population) the enforcement of the said Order will be first reviewed The problematic status of those persons who were born in Palestine but were residing abroad the enforcement of the same Order will then be addressed in the light of the applicable law and in accordance with the practice of the British Empire and the British-run Government of Palestine Generally textbooks refer to Palestine with the West Bank and Gaza Strip distinguished from Israel which isn’t d but so aren’t the neighbor states Border topographic or demographic maps are mostly labeled as Historical Palestine It is meant to preserve the memory of places in historical Palestine especially cities with Israeli Arab populations which are perceived as a legacy of all Palestinian people As far as the modern history is concerned the schoolbooks don’t cover the unresolved political issues which are part of each side’s strategic plans That is why the territory of the state of Israel is shown without any label and there is no reference to Palestine made either which is explained that Israel itself has not yet marked its borders and no final agreement has been reached with. Earliest English examples inclined toward the racial meaning “large group of people with common ancestry.” Older sense preserved in application to North American Indian peoples (1640s) Nation-building first attested 1907 (implied in nation-builder) and religion is barely even mentioned on the page do you have a source for your allegation “until a century or two ago most national identities included a common religion” ? But of course this is Adam and Phil’s site and they make the rules And they obviously give you wide latitude in interpreting those rules Including an overly generous interpretation of site violation BTW nothing in comments policy about ethnic cleansing so I guess you get to make up some of your own rules So lets stick with bare facts Muslim population of Jerusalem… 1967 54,963 2011 281,000 That’s strange it seems to be increasing And regarding “Judaization” Jerusalem has been majority Jewish for over a century and the Jewish people are indigenous to the area That’s liking making. One thing that is confusing for modern people is that in the ancient world and until a century or two ago most national identities included a common religion and not just language culture and geography the concept of nations and therefore “national identities” is somewhat modern not even a century old ?allowed_in_frame=0&search=nation&searchmode=none The 2013 report of a UN Human Rights Council Fact-Finding Mission confirmed that “The transfer of Israeli citizens into the OPT [occupied Palestinian territories] prohibited under international humanitarian law and international criminal law is a central feature of Israel’s practices and policies,” and that Palestine’s ratification of the Rome Statute “may lead to accountability for gross violations of human rights law and serious violations of international humanitarian law and justice for victims.” Israeli civilians are being transferred into settlements whose seizure or construction gives rise to the applicability of two additional war crimes relating to Palestinian property rights as noted in the Goldstone report 140820-gaza-city- Funny how the native voice you found was a christian zionist can you find a non christian zionist one? again that you found one voice doesn’t negate the truth of mine statement that native american as a group show very high levels of support for the palestinians both are oppressed indigenious peoples who were dispossessed by colonial forces. If indeed you are a secularist then I would argue that you should still support Zionism since a purely secularist approach to history has no real archaeological evidence for a mass Israeli invasion of Canaan Secular historians posit that the Israelites evolved out of the surviving Canaanite tribes As such the Jewish claim is almost identical to the one that the Palestinians argue for But there is too much documentation to ignore the fact that most Arabs who define themselves as Palestinians are either descended from post-18th century migrants or else descended from Arabs who never lived in Palestine. So you expect intelligent people to recognize are fairy tale biblical Israel never existed if you want Israel’s actual historical borders your looking at a state a third the size of palestine and giving up giving up any claim to jerusalem jerusalem was never in Israel until its illegal conquest. They’ve been agreeing to than for decades Read their declaration of statehood Israel keeps adding ridiculous conditions that have no legal basis The demand for recognition as a Jewish state has no legal basis Recognition cannot be demanded and recognition is not mandatory Numerous UN Member states do not recognize each other Territorial swaps have no legal basis Israel wants to swap Palestinian land for Palestinian Land so Israel can keep Palestinian Land Israel keeping Palestinian territory for its self defense has no legal basis The Israeli demand that Palestine disarm has no legal basis all states have equal right to defensive arms The Israeli demand for a peace treaty sans Israeli withdrawal from all non-Israeli territories has no legal basis Read the Israel/Egypt Peace treaty Israel was required to withdraw BEFORE peaceful relations were assumed Thus given the anti ethnic ideal of “progressive” America added to the shed-the-old-bring-out-the-new of a large portion of American Jewry this “Jew is a religion and not a nation nor even an ethnic group” becomes a useful tool to describe the goal that progressive America and assimilating Jews wish to achieve But historically it reflects a wish or a historical novelty rather than an essence It may be a good wish and the progressive American idea may deserve the propaganda boost so as to bolster it into the future but it is not a historical fact and stated alone like that it embodies arrogance and dogmatism rather than humble thoughtful historical perspective or nuance. Dear “a blah chick”: You mentioned the young Jewish thugs who are running around scrawling “death to the Arabs” Good point but incomplete They are also scrawling “Arabs to the gas chambers” Do you think these young Jewish thugs are just bluffing? I don’t Not to mention the middle-aged Jewish thugs who helped to inflict death to over 2000 Arabe in the most recent massacre in Gaza And the elderly Jewish thugs in policy-making roles who justified these massacres. It’s interesting to note that the Wikipedia article states “Native American spiritualism exists in a tribal-cultural continuum and as such cannot be easily separated from tribal identity itself.” That really reminded me of Judaism and Jewish national identity Be that as it may my impression from the various hits I saw on Google is that most American Indian organizations don’t really feel very strongly about the Arab-Israeli conflict but when one group or representative comes out in favor of one side then Indians from that same tribe or association will come forth from the other So ultimately I don’t think either Jews or Palestinians can legitimately claim a sizable following of American Indians. As fior allowing you to claim the kingdom of judah I was saying if you’d want to make a legit historical based argument i’d let you combine the kingdom of judah with the kingdom of Israel and argue those borders as a basis rather than the mythical ones your using ???why are you asking if i think any part of palestine should belong to your terrorist country jerusalem is legally the palestinians while me and talknic has differences in opinion over the legality of Israel declaring its self the fact remains while those lands fall into a very dark grey part of the law everything out side of that is most asurdedly illeaglly occupied land belonging to the sovriegn state of palestine. International recognition by 135 countries and counting is what Palestinians are betting could eventually force changes on the ground — without their leaders having to make the concessions or assurances they have long avoided I have a question for the Times What “concessions” should an occupied people make whose land has been continuously stolen and whose people are routinely being killed extrajudicially and jailed without trial? As for “long avoided,” the PLO recognized Israel more than 25 years ago inside the 1967 borders What more assurances does Israel need? And late in the piece there is this sop to Israel over possible war crimes charges:

[I couldn’t find a “Reply” link anywhere close to the comment quoted below (site admin(s) please fix this!) so I’m replying here.] >> Robert in Israeleee: [Jews] have every element in common as any other nation … Great! I look forward: – to Jewish becoming the bureaucratic nationality of “Jewish State” in the same way as any other nation has its bureaucratic nationality (France=French Germany=German Canada=Canadian etc.); – to that bureaucratic nationality being granted to every citizen of immigrant to and ex-pat and refugee from “Jewish State”; and – to constitutionally-enshrined equality for all bureaucratically Jewish citizens of “Jewish State”. One last point Ultimately I know that the Islamists and those sympathetic to Islamism will never give up their fight That's why I personally would like to see a 6th element which I believe is actually the most important for success in the real Middle East To wit Palestinian preachers must preach about the natural Zionism of the Quran and the Islamic sources If Palestinian Muslims (who are over 90% of the Palestinians after all) were to contemplate regularly on verses such as 5:21 where Moses says to the Children of Israel "O My People enter the Holy Land which Allah has assigned you," and to quote the Islamic sources that explain that the Holy Land is Palestine that would be invaluable in creating an atmosphere of peace and preparedness for an eternal rapprochement with the Children of Israel. In 2007 CNN correspondent Atika Shubert and Arabic translators accused MEMRI of mistranslating portions of a Palestinian children’s television programme “Media watchdog MEMRI translates one caller as saying – quote – ‘We will annihilate the Jews,”‘ said Shubert “But according to several Arabic speakers used by CNN the caller actually says ‘The Jews are killing us.”‘ /commentisfree/2007/may/15/arabicunderfire /world/2002/aug/12 hitaker and no i do not watch the memri videos not even curious cheer up i don’t watch isis videos either Now the letter ‘P’ does not exist in Arabic hence the need to change the pronunciation to Falastin(e) when i put “Paleshet” (פְּלֶשֶׁת) into google translate is came back “Flst.” and doesn’t it mean “(p’léshet “Philistia land of the Philistines” and Philistines have the “F” sound? the term Palestine began in the late Roman era as a Latin term based on the Hebrew “Paleshet” i don’t really know whether this is true or not in ancient greek they also called it Palaistínē none the less…doesn’t it sort of undermine your argument ancient hebrews were calling the land “Philistia land of the Philistines” if as you claim it is not the homeland of palestinians? besides how do you know the hebrew term came prior to the ancient greek term or inspired it? (5th BC Attic): IPA: /pala͜ɪsti͜ínɛ͜ɛ/ Simple answer: Jewishness is at its root a form of nationhood Once a time every nation had its national religion Religion was as inseparable from nationhood as language geography biological connectedness and culture continue to be today But when Christianity Buddhism and Islam became completely international it became necessary to literally separate between church and state After all how could for example two Christian countries attack each other if they were one nation? Ironically the West has little tolerance for religio-nationhood even though the separation of church and state happened not out of principle but out of the ad hoc need to justify attacking fellow Christian countries and not out of some profound ethical awakening. “in Israel only one soldier has been convicted for a wartime abuse: he got seven months in prison for the theft of a credit card ” I think he bought beer with it The IDF seems to take looting by its troops much more seriously than killing It’s almost like they’re saying “hey guys don’t steal from the natives…that’s the government’s job!” As to the “investigations” the only purpose they serve is to provide Israel’s supporters with the claim that Israel is a nation of laws and on one is above them But has any IDF personnel ever served significant jail time for murder of an Arab?. Typical of superficial thinkers like you to call me an idiot rather than admit that the term “Palestinian” originally referred to the Jews and occasionally to the foreign invaders living here The invention of the Palestinian national myth is central to the racist rejection of Jewish national rights and since you are strongly attracted to that racist rejectionism you encounter serious cognitive dissonance when historical facts run counter to your position Hence the emotional outburst And for the record I do not think you are an idiot but your emotionalism is blocking your ability to debate rationally Disagree with me as much as you please but eschew ad hominem attacks. Talknic you seriously project on to others your own failings And as for the “Palestinian citizenship” you keep quoting that was vis a vis the British Mandate not some mythical Palestinian state that once existed I know you know that but you keep hoping that others who don’t like to read will believe you so I’m setting the record straight It was a temporary citizenship until the Mandate would be ended Stop changing historical facts to suit your politics. “why do European and American Arabs claim they have a right of return and a right of sovereignty in the Holy Land? Just because their great-grandfather once lived there? …Why is that OK but not for the Jews?”” You will have to ask them why they claim it You might get different answers from each one I would say that if they or their ancestors explicitly renounced their Palestinian citizenship then they do not have that right Those who or whose ancestors acquired another citizenship without such renunciation may (or may not) be able to claim Palestinian citizenship by right of descent Note that they are able to show direct descent from Palestinian citizens How many European or American Jews can produce family trees and supporting documents to show descent from citizens of Palestine? Only countries that are not racist supremacist war mongers or are not fully intent on stealing all the land of the indigenous people Israel isn’t one of those unfortunately “And while I prefer to keep these posts short I can’t just ignore your comment about the Palestinians suffering the longest most brutal occupation in history Seriously? To say that to a member of a nation whose homeland was occupied for over 2,000 years and whose people both in and out of the homeland were butchered by the millions takes a special kind of chutzpah Hmm I guess that “bornajoo” moniker is literally correct! ” Your arguments are purely ad hoc and have no basis in fact or history But I can add that one thing that is confusing for modern people is that in the ancient world and until a century or two ago most national identities included a common religion and not just language culture and geography The Jews are a very ancient nation and so of course the religion is part and parcel of the national identity But we’re not the only extant ancient nation The Armenians are quite an ancient nation and they too have a specific religion and even a specific brand of Christianity as an integral part of their national identity In fact when a portion of the Armenians converted to Islam they stopped being considered part of the Armenian nation and are instead called Hamshenis In short your intolerance of Jewish nationalism (and presumably all religio-nations) is merely a function of your cultural bias. Robert I hate to break it to you especially when you are so generously conceding your willingness under certain “minimal” ludicrous conditions to live with a Palestinian state in the West Bank and Gaza… But that old two states idea is past its sell-by date There is increasing acceptance including among Palestinians in their homeland and in the diaspora that it will be a single state I know this is scary for people like you Robert who are so frightened of having to share your homeland with them especially knowing it’s just a matter of time before Jews are a minority But it’s coming Robert so get used to the idea I know the One Democratic State when it comes won’t be exactly democratic even as Israel today has never been exactly democratic But Palestinians are very patient They know they aren’t going anywhere Someday they will. Jerusalem had a plurality of Jews by 1830 and a flat-out majority by 1870 In fact one of the main reasons the Arabs rejected the Partition Plan was because it stated that the Special Regime in Jerusalem would only last for ten years to be followed by a referendum of the residents of Jerusalem to determine which state they wished to live under The Arabs new that Jerusalem was majority Jewish so by 1958 it would have become a part of Israel Tactically I understand why the Arabs therefore rejected. ” “Now I’ve got an exercise for you Amigo Could you please post a pre-20th-century reference to the Palestinians? I’d appreciate that” ….clueless Robert in Israel >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Been telling you people to lay off the zio history comic books and read ‘real’ history Lets see if your math skills come from comic books also—count how many times ‘Palestine’ and Palestina is called Palestine in ancient history and on ancient maps Palestine 1020 B.C “Palestine in the time of Saul.” From Atlas of the Historical Geography of the Holy Land Smith George Adam London 1915. Dr Mutaz M Qafisheh holds Ph.D in International Law (honors) Graduate Institute of International and Development Studies Geneva He is currently a Professor of International Law at the Hebron University and the Al-Quds University Palestine and a practicing international lawyer He is a former Human Rights Officer United Nations Office of the High Commissioner for Human Rights Geneva and Beirut; Regional Director Penal Reform International Middle East and North Africa Amman; Director Security Sector Reform Birzeit University; Director Legal Education Program Palestinian Law Schools Jerusalem; Legal Advisor and Program Manager Legislative Process Palestinian Legislative Council Ramallah His areas of specialization include human rights humanitarian law international criminal law nationality and citizenship statelessness refugees migration Israeli-Palestinian conflict law of the Middle East Islamic law UN system and legislative drafting. Still with the tired lie of a jewish nation jews are a religion not a nation and its not their homeland as only ethnic groups have those the alleged jewish homeland wasn’t occupied jews abaddoned it and arab and proto arab people have always been in palestine your just another entitled zionist jew who thinks you deserve others people things simply because you. “eventually if enough of us leave their viewing or reading pool they will have to change.” Unfortunately if the newspaper or media outlet’s owners determine that the message is worth the monetary loss it’ll keep on going And if there isn’t some other revenue stream to the publication which can keep. To READ ABOUT PALESTINIAN TEXTBOOKS BETTER TRY: The Israeli Palestine Education Center for Research and Information (IPCRI) The Georg Eckert Institute for International Textbook Research Project on Israeli-Palestinian Textbooks and books of noted scholar professor Nathan. Separate Legal Systems for Jewish-Israeli Settlers and Palestinians in the Occupied Territories .org/en/youth-education-a-activation-project/item/1695-art7 If I were only dialoguing with you I’d go point by point but there are a dozen others LOLOLOLOLOOLO shorter robert: ‘you’ve overwhelmed me.’!!! Contrast that with the almost unanimous position of the Palestinian negotiators who demand that their state be emptied of all Jews nah they never said that they said no military no settlers they never said jew free and you damn well know it they got spread all over the news for less than a day and was refuted loser As for your “scholars” and the Israeli “scholars” in particular I’m quite familiar their writings, Zofia what an exhaustive (and exhausting) series of posts! Surely not the work of a single lunch hour It would be a good idea for MW to collect them into a set of essays for a FAQ section (something MW desperately needs) so that when harbareers start peddling their tripe we can refer them to your refutations. Completing the CAPTCHA proves you are a human and gives you temporary access to the web property What can I do to prevent this in the future? If you are on a personal connection like at home you can run an anti-virus scan on your device to make sure it is not infected with malware If you are at an office or shared network you can ask the network administrator to run a scan across the network looking for misconfigured or infected devices. When you agree to negotiate with someone you negotiate with their people You do not have to like them I know you think that it is wrong to sit across from someone who has killed Jews or called for the destruction of Israel but that’s the way of the world Plenty of Palestinians have sat across from Israelis who have killed Arab civilians Israel routinely deals with members of the PA that have been implicated in terror attacks in the past; they seem to have gotten over those As for Hizbullah the only reason Israeli government doesn’t like them is because they make Israel’s periodic invasions problematic If they were to put themselves at the service of Israel and the US they would be getting glowing write ups in the media BTW have you seen the people your government has been getting close to in Syria? “Justice can take a back seat to peace if there is sufficient justice in the compromise between the two.” I have no idea what. This will guarantee the Jewish integrity of “Jewish State” (because there will never be any significant non-Jewish demographic) and all refugees from Partition-borders “Jewish State” will be able to return to their homes and lands as Jewish citizens of “Jewish State”. About Palestinian identity history term etc I wrote: /2014/12/million-palestinians-feiglin#comment-732760 /2014/12/million-palestinians-feiglin#comment-732844 ” I just wanted to answer your question directly without getting into the myriad political ramifications of those borders.” Of course the illegality of Israel’s actions outside of its proclaimed and recognized borders are too many and too confronting to consider “So if an organization’s charter calls for Israel’s destruction” The Hamas charter doesn’t The Lukid charter on the other hand requires the destruction of Palestine “I see negotiating as pointless and dangerous to the point of being immoral” Israel has already taken everything from palestine you can’t squeeze blood out of a turnip israel has to return some of what it’s stolen including palestinian riparian rights lots of things the whole “both sides” narrative is a hasbara talking point it’s never gonna fly remember the palestine papers? they all ready offered israel everything the only thing israel would settle on is palestinians moving to jordan we’re not idiots. Middle Ages Rashidun Umayyad and Abbasid Caliphates period Reconstruction of the CE Ravenna Cosmography showing “Palaestina” Israel’s “national investigations” are a complete and. Pj dude states (somewhere in this overstuffed thread): jews are a religion not a nation and its not their homeland as only ethnic groups have those pj has inscribed on his two tablets the law from on high the jews are a religion and not a nation they are not even an ethnic group so i react: Although one does not wish to grant Hitler or his living heirs any ideological victories but during last century’s outstanding Jewish defeat and catastrophe (1939-1945) the definition of “Jew” was definitely ethnic and totally divorced (at least regarding a practical case by case basis) from the religion (The reason why I specify case by case: In its totality the Nazis’ extermination antiSemitism was influenced by at least one element of Judaism- the myth of the chosen people The exaltation of the Aryan race utilized the Jewish myth of chosenness as their idea’s polar opposite.) ” have you never studied the case of Tibet? Occupied and annexed by China since 1950 (after earlier sustained invasions) over 1.2 million Tibetans have been murdered — all non-combatants All but a handful of monasteries and shrines remain of the more than 6,000 that existed in 1950 China has continued to flood Tibet with Chinese settlers such that today ethnic Chinese are about 60% of the Tibetan population And political and religious rights remain highly restricted for ethnic Tibetans It should be noted that the Tibetans of course never used terrorism and never fired missiles at Chinese towns and villages But the world and the UN are mostly silent because no one with power really cares and everyone wants Chinese business.” Uh huh … You really know how to step in it … . /search?q=China%20Israel%20largest%20trading “you can imagine that the hardline Palestinians feel a thousand times more hatred and anger” Yes I can because the UN and the US and the other bastions of freedom have done NOTHING to deliver the Palestinians LEGAL rights They’re LEGAL rights under the laws Israel obliged itself to uphold by A) becoming a state with specific boundaries B) Occupying non-Israeli territory and C) Pleading to become a UN Member state ” Forget about how noble or purely practical such an Israeli retreat would be It’d basically be an act of national suicide for Israel to retreat to such borders” You’re moaning to the wrong people buddy Israel is responsible for your safety but Israel can’t guarantee the safety of its citizens while it illegally claims occupied territories as its own and encourages its citizens to illegally settle in occupied territories in contravention of laws that were adopted to protect civilians including those of the Occupying Power from the expected violent consequences of occupying another people and their territory Go yell at the Israeli Government “You think we’re invincible” Er no pal I don’t No one is invincible I do know for a fact that Israel has been more than capable of defending itself over the last 67 years Not only has Israel defended its own territory it has managed to illegally acquire some 50% of what remained of Palestine after Israel’s borders were proclaimed and recognized /pDB7k-Xk Time for Max to have a front- pager in the NYT after the ‘unmasking’ of Ross and the screed from Rudoren Just saying. “some experts reports show that Zionists and Zionism are portrayed in a negative light Generally Israel Israelis Zionism and Zionists are depicted as occupiers invaders aggressors infiltrators and oppressors.” I can’t imagine why. “the real reason that the Palestinian issue is paramount in the UN and in international debate is because this dispute involves the Jews and the Holy Land.” It doesn’t matter why the issue is paramount That doesn’t affect the reality which is that Israel is in the wrong “the case of Tibet? Occupied and annexed by China ” China being in the wrong doesn’t stop Israel from being in the wrong. @ Robert in Israel “Like it or not the UN voted for Israel and continues to host Israel as a member nation” The UN voted to accept Israel as a member based on the FACT that Israel had proclaimed its boundaries per UNGA res 181 and was recognized as such and; that Israel would adhere to the UN Charter in its entirety inclusive of adhering to International Law and; adhere to its proclaimed and recognized boundaries Israel hasn’t adhered to its boundaries and hasn’t adhere to the UN Charter or International Law The same US veto on Chapt VII resolutions against Israel for having broken the Law and UN Charter as outlined in hundreds of UNSC resolutions reminding Israel of its legal obligations can be used to prevent Israel being tossed out of the UN However all that does is allow the stupid frog to remain in the pot while it turns the heat up on itself. At this point you have exposed yourself completely for the obvious religious messianic colonialist zealot that you are I grew up with the same kind of brainwashing as you Robert but I managed to open my eyes and escape and I wake up every morning really grateful that I did It seems that your programming runs very deeeeep Robert In fact I could hazard a guess that you may even live in a settlement I won’t bother to reply to your claim that your “homeland was occupied for over 2000 years” because really Robert at this point you should calm down and wait for the ambulance to arrive 2 men with white coats will give you a little injection give you a comfy jacket to wear (might be a bit tight) and take you somewhere where you are safe and will not be able to harm anyone anymore No buster its because Israel is a UN Member state and required to adhere to International Law and the UN Charter But rather than take the opportunities it has been afforded hundreds of times in hundreds of UNSC resolutions reminding Israel of its legal obligations the Jewish state run and aided by idiots has flaunted the law and UN Charter ignoring its legal obligations building more and more illegal facts on the ground that it cannot possibly afford to get out of ” If the Chinese had invaded you’d be as ignorant of this conflict as you are of Tibet-China “ China has a UNSC veto vote … Go yell at the Israeli Govt . /search?q=China%20Israel%20largest%20trading @robert “did you ever give a moment’s thought to the fact that the Palestinians have always had *plenty* to lose? Because of their (and your) inability to make concessions that address Israeli concerns the Palestinians continue to lose valuable assets such as security prosperity and territory You can’t tell me they have the same amount of these as they did 50 years ago And they certainly have been losing valuable time as well.” Please allow me to paraphrase a bit “Right now the Palestinians continue to demand that there be two states: one on the east which is 100% Arab and one on the west which is over 50% Arab Do you really think any country would agree to such an arrangement if put in Israel’s situation?” Only countries that are not racist supremacist war mongers or are not fully intent on stealing all the land of the indigenous people Israel isn’t one of those unfortunately “you can’t squeeze blood out of a turnip.” But as you pointed out to me on another thread you can squeeze blood out of a Palestinian So the concessions could included a couple of pints of blood and an organ or two from each Palestinian as a contribution to the Israeli spare. @ mondonut // What “concessions” …”// “1 Jerusalem 2 RoR” 2) They’re Israelis who have RoR to Israel as it was proclaimed May 15th 1948 in order to be recognized “as an independent republic within frontiers approved by the General Assembly of the United Nations in its Resolution of Novem” as requested by the Israeli Government! Perhaps the quotation marks should go around “reporter” instead of around “NYT.” As with the recent deplorable piece by Dennis Ross it is good that NYT airs these perspectives It is good that people can clearly see what mentality what morality what values have shaped U.S policy for so. About natonalism itself you can read: Craig Calhoun “Nationalism”,A Giddens Charles Tilly J Breuilly R Brubaker Anthony Smith Michael Billig and many others Many books you can download About communities and nationalism: Benedict Anderson About ethnicity a great summary of modern works about it you can find in “Ethnicity” by Steve Fenton. In progressive America and other progressive societies in 2015 there is a move/wish to create a post ethnic society (not quite the same as the movement towards a multicultural society which is also a zeitgeist in the west.) Aside from this spirit of the west there is the spirit of the Jews: When the Jews came to America (in particular but maybe other Anglo Saxon countries as well) they felt the urge to become “fully human” and to shed the old world and to be born anew as Americans This was a strong impulse and still is an impulse for Jews in. Palestinian nationality was regulated by the Treaty of Lausanne in a similar way to how the nationalities of other mandated-territories in the Middle East were regulated The Treaty confirmed the previous practice whereby the inhabitants of Palestine were effectively regarded as Palestinians To be sure most of the nationality rules of the Treaty were later embodied in the 1925 Palestinian Citizenship Order and became part of the country’s legal system The Treaty of Lausanne including its nationality rules remained legally binding and effectively applicable throughout the mandate period (until 14 May 1948) The “Palestinian Citizenship Order 1925” as it is officially called was enacted by Britain on 24 July 1925 and came into force on 1 August 1925 The 1925 Citizenship Order constituted the ‘nationality law’ of Palestine which was referred to in Article 7 of the Palestine Mandate. Whats just in giving to a state borders that were never theirs your arrogance shows their can’t be a palestinian state on the jewish homeland because there isn’t a jewish homeland there is a palestinian one in palestine your litlerally demanding us to cave into borders that were. Statistics showing an increase in Israeli deaths from Hamas’ missiles would be nice … thx … I’ll wait …… Meanwhile the occupied have a right to armed resistance Go yell at the Israeli Government they’re responsible for occupying non-Israeli territories and illegally claiming illegally annexing and illegally settling in occupied territories .org /b86613e7d92097880525672e007227a7/6de6da8a650b4c3b852560df00663826?OpenDocument ” In the last war Israel’s tourism industry was basically frozen And that’s just with simple rockets “ “on what basis do these folks believe that the Government of Israel will go to any length and all lengths to eventually incorporate them into Israel?.Okay it’s just a tangent but that has always mystified me and maybe somebody could explain it Mooser Yahweh. >> Robert in Israel: … Second your basic argument is that Israel has to make concessions because it is a big thief But we don’t see it that way Of course you don’t: You’re Zio-supremacists >> In fact many of us see it exactly the opposite Of course you do: You’re Zio-supremacists >> The Arabs maintained the occupation of the Jewish homeland … The geographic region of Palestine was not and is not the “Jewish homeland” It was and is the homeland of people – non-Jews and Jews alike – born in or up to n generations removed from the geographic region of Palestine. Hophmi ” The thrust of the article was that Palestinian efforts internationally are putting pressure on Israel” So what? Negotiations haven’t worked Israel just keeps on upping the ante with demands that have no legal basis and continues to create its obstructive illegal facts on the ground UNSC resolutions haven’t worked Israel simply ignores the binding International Laws they emphasize and re-affirm Never missing an opportunity to miss an opportunity Palestinian offers of to accept only 22% of their rightful territory for peace with Israel haven’t worked Israel simply ignored the offers and kept on building its illegal facts on the ground What would you suggest that the Palestinians should do to get their LEGAL rights? But the step could have major repercussions not least because Palestinian officials could also be charged by the court “It is the Palestinian Authority — which is in a unity government with Hamas an avowed terrorist organization that like ISIS perpetrates war crimes — that needs to be concerned about the International Criminal Court in The Hague,” Mr Netanyahu said in a statement after the signing. The demand for RoR is under UNGA res 194 (1948) UNGA res 194 was adopted before UNRWA (1949) the UNRWA figure is irrelevant to res 194 and the Palestinian claim Furthermore people with RoR to within Israel ‘s actual sovereign boundaries are Israelis All states have equal right to arms and self defense None of those claims by Israel have any actual legal basis and in fact Israel’s demands go against its own Declaration of Statehood ” if they would concede on the aforementioned issues they could probably get more than 22% with land swaps So the 22% figure is a red herring” By birth (Arts 3–6): those meeting any of the following conditions are considered Palestinians: • born in Palestine from a legitimate where the father was by then Palestinian • born outside Palestine from a legitimate where the father was Palestinian or naturalized Palestine and was present in Palestine on the date of birth of the child • born in Palestine to a legitimate/illegitimate and did not obtain another nationality. Conclusion This brief study when added to the work already done by Kraabel,suggests that the terms loudaia loudaios ludaeus and ludaea especially when applied to individuals must be interpreted with care While inscriptions demonstrate that one could be called Jewish by ethnicity or Jewish by religion or belief some lend themselves to Kraabel’s suggestion that geographic origin is intended Most of the other inscriptions lend themselves to the explanation that non-Jews who affiliated with Judaism either took on the term perhaps as a self-designation or gave the term as a proper to their children And it may well be that the term was necessary especially in situations where the Jewishness of the individual might not be apparent,not only in cases of burial near pagan graves (as Frey suggested) but in cases where the individual did not begin life as. “what is disputed is the status of the the West Bank the Gaza Strip the Golan Heights and East Jerusalem” The word ‘disputed’ is not apparent in any UNSC resolution on the question of Palestine In fact the UNSC says “Israel the Occupying Power” Also used to describe Israel’s actions are ” no legal validity and constitute a flagrant violation of the Fourth Geneva Convention relative to the Protection of Civilian Persons in Time of War and also constitute a serious obstruction to achieving a comprehensive just and lasting peace in the Middle East;” You’ll see that the international community explicitly recognized the right of the Jews to reconstitute its national home the most explicit quote being from the preamble: “recognition has thereby been given to the historical connection of the Jewish people with Palestine and to the grounds for reconstituting their national home in that country;” That term “reconstitute” is political and legally significant Mark it well It should also be noted that UN Resolution 181 which allowed for the Jews and Arabs to declare their respective states derived its force from the guidelines set forth in the Mandate document And 181 explicitly refers to “the Jewish State” lest you claim that the UN only recognized a secular state coincidentally called “Israel” Does that answer your question? “but in case you think I’m only focused on Jewish suffering have you never studied the case of Tibet? Occupied and annexed by China since 1950 (after earlier sustained invasions) over 1.2 million Tibetans have been murdered — all non-combatants All but a handful of monasteries and shrines remain of the more than 6,000 that existed in 1950 China has continued to flood Tibet with Chinese settlers such that today ethnic Chinese are about 60% of the Tibetan population And political and religious rights remain highly restricted for ethnic Tibetans It should be noted that the Tibetans of course never used terrorism and never fired missiles at Chinese towns and villages But the world and the UN are mostly silent because no one with power really cares and everyone wants Chinese business.” You’re spouting drivel Israel compromised its security the moment it started taking other folks territory for its own purposes If security was the actual concern why has Israel populated the territories it claims for security with civilians? Palestine cannot become an independent state and retain the features you treasure in order to perpetuate the occupation and justify the acquisition of even more non-Israeli land “Do you really think that organizations like Hamas ISIS Al-Qaeda etc are going to one day just say aw heck let’s drop our fight for ousting the Jews from Palestine” Aw heck Israeli propaganda mantras are so f*(king Zionist plan to Colonize Palestine began 1897 DECADES before Hamas ISIS alQaeda. @robert “the answer is that while the Palestinians are said to have nothing to lose… ” You are kidding right? Do you ever give a moments thought as to why they “have nothing to lose”? They’ve already had everything stolen from them and the blatant theft continues They are murdered maimed kidnapped treated like sub humans herded like animals into checkpoints bombed to smithereens using the latest lethal military equipment They have been subjected to the longest and most brutal occupation in history and for the sake of my sanity and trying to keep this comment short I won’t mention the other numerous crimes committed against them And you believe they need to make MORE concessions?! Okay I. P.s Interestingly in looking for a link to an original description of the attack on the Jews of Safed I came across a footnote recorded in 1843 of a letter written by someone who lived through the incident but in Jerusalem which was also hard hit Here’s that link: . /books?id=Pw0pAQAAMAAJ&pg=PA411&dq=arabs+jews+palestine+1834&hl=en&sa=X&ei=cMu4VPypDoS5OJqNgaAM&ved=0CCMQ6AEwAQ#v=onepage&q=arabs%20jews%20palestine%201834&f=false (If the link doesn’t work the book is “Sacred History of the World” by Sharon Turner Vol 2 p 411 2nd paragraph of the footnote.) “but Israel haters insist that the Palestinians shouldn’t have to make concrete guarantees about stopping incitement stopping tunneling dropping demands for limitless immigration to Israel and not building a full-fledged army because they’ve agreed to only 22% of Western Palestine.” The incitement is from Palestine being gobbled up by Israel and Palestinians being dispossessed Nothing of Israel’s has ever been taken or claimed by the Palestinians the Palestinians have never prevented Jews from settling in Israel’s actual territory Tunneling is legal against an occupying power End the occupation. “the New York Times should have provided this context so we could judge how well these investigations are likely to go.” Once again a writer who assumes that the NYT is something other than a blatant propaganda tool Why we continue to legitimize this rag is beyond me The only thing that should be written about the Times the only time it should be quoted or referenced as concerns Israel or any foreign policy issue is to point out the lies and misinformation that are its stock in trade North does this but then he reinforces the notion that the Times is an actual News source by suggesting that all we need to do is remind them that they should provide a context for their propaganda smears This is particularly true of any thing written by Judi Rudoren To even suggest that she is a journalist is offensive Her articles are so absurdly transparent as to be downright criminal She should be ridiculed and dismissed out. Talknic you are the worst kind of hypocrite You cite any source you like and usually none at all for your claims but you feel that’s OK But every time I try to give a normal source you feel no need to investigate You just mock away and go on living in the little fantasy world you’ve designed for yourself But on the really off-chance you’re willing to actually deal with some serious cognitive dissonance try reading 19th-century travel journals of visitors to Palestine and see what you find CAUTION: READING ORIGINAL DOCUMENTS CAN BE DAMAGING TO YOUR ILLUSIONS Hi MHughes976 Believe it or not I basically agree with everything you wrote It’s also nice to read someone who knows how to disagree respectfully I completely agree that someone who does not believe in the divinity of any of the famous holy books should accept claims to divine land assignments That is why I reserve my arguments regarding the very Zionist passages in the Quran and Hadith for Muslims and not secularists. Or: Ricca S Heritage Nationalism and the Shifting Symbolism of the Wailing Wall- you can download it A. Like all Zio-supremacists Ms Rudoren would like for the victim to make more concessions to the rapist: Less struggle keep herself clean and pretty show more appreciation Meanwhile the rapist is absolved of all responsibility and accountability for his past and ON-GOING crimes After all he’s a “moral beacon” who’s just exercising his “right” of “self-determination”. What is certainly absurd is Zofia’s claim that the similarity in sounds and number of alphabet letters makes Arabic a better match despite the fact that Hebrew’s root meanings are far more similar to the near-Eastern languages she’s been using for comparison It’d be like claiming that since English uses nearly the same alphabet as Hebrew the two are closely related It’s just intellectually dishonest to make such an argument as if it were a scientific fact. I think you can take me seriously if you don’t read into my writings what I didn’t write explicitly though you are of course entitled to interpret my intentions One small point since I’m answering dozens of posts from almost the same number of posters I described the Biblical borders in answer to a query about whether or not I envision any limits at all to the Land of Israel Borders are indeed a problem since place s that were clear 3.5 millennia ago were already unclear by 2 millennia ago and all the more so today But I gave my interpretation just to be open about my ideas At the same time I carefully stated that in a peace agreement I wouldn’t expect that Israel would get my ideal borders I think I was being pretty reasonable for an unapologetic rightwing Zionist. How clever … You’re spouting bullsh*te /profile/talknic We have our Jewish People’s homeland state it was proclaimed and recognized as “an independent republic within frontiers approved by the General Assembly of the United Nations in its Resolution of Novem” it’s called Israel Whatever lay outside Israel isn’t Israeli For Israel to covet and steal what isn’t Israeli has and will continue to endanger Israelis Neither Jews or Israelis are a. So as I stated back in January and unlike Welsh Methodists and Hindus the Jews really are a nation: the Judaeans AKA the Children of Israel — a nation that has lasted for three millennia and G-d willing will continue to blossom as a free and independent nation in all of its ancestral homeland forever Amen. Shurat HaDin an Israeli legal group has already filed war-crimes complaints at The Hague against Hamas Mr Abbas said Wednesday night that the Palestinian move meant that other Palestinian officials “will be able to be sued as well.” Naftali Bennett Israel’s economy minister said that Mr Abbas too could find himself charged He warned in a statement “Someone who has terrorism smeared all over his head should not stand in the sun.” /2015/01/01/world/middleeast/palestinians-to-join-international-criminal-court-defying-israeli-us- ?mabReward=RI%3A11 “the invention of the Palestinian national myth is central to the racist rejection of Jewish national rights” I’m not sure what you mean by “Jewish national rights” but I presume they are founded on the invention of the Jewish national myth which is central to the racist rejection of the rights of the Palestinians. Gosh golly you’re right Bumblebye This website is not about China or Tibet Sadly for you it’s also not about Grimms’ Fairy Tales or Khazars so you too have to find another site After all this site doesn’t allow using outside examples or references A wise policy indeed for we wouldn’t want to overtax anyone’s brain with having to contemplate analogous situations or metaphors. And about that Arab thing of yours: /2015/01/reporter-palestinians-concessions#comment-736466 I must add to what I wrote there: “Inhabitants weren’t magically replaced by Arabs FROM THE PENINSULA AND OTHER REGIONS… IN VII CENTURY.” There were few waves of immigrants over many centuries even studies about Arabic show that I wrote earlier that being considered “Arab” should be understood more as being part of Arab culture (especially language) not some homogeneous ethnic group of some sorts (or race) Its only the national discourses that make “Jews” “Arabs” etc a coherent different group that must have originated from. Jews in general are not a nation in any normal sense of the word (even if they call themselves one) but let that pass Where do you get that idea that ‘dispossessed nations’ have a right to liberate their ‘homeland’? On what principles is this alleged right based? And does that right include the right to dispossess legitimate long-term residents? The Palestinians are far more a “nation” (nineteenth century connected group sense) than Jews are but they do not have the right to drive out the Israeli Jews They do have a right to live in Palestine (all of it from the Jordan to the sea) as full and equal citizens. Tvtropes is licensed under a Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial-ShareAlike 3.0 Unported License Permissions beyond the scope of this license may be available from thestaff@ Privacy Policy The sad thing is that what Israel demands has a lot less to do with territory and physical security and much more to do with psychological security But Israel haters insist that the Palestinians shouldn’t have to make concrete guarantees about stopping incitement stopping tunneling dropping demands for limitless immigration to Israel and not building a full-fledged army because they’ve agreed to only 22% of Western Palestine Well if they would concede on the aforementioned issues they could probably get more than 22% with land swaps So the 22% figure is a red herring Call it speculation but my personal analysis of Palestinian intransigence regarding Israel’s red lines is that their overarching goal is Israel’s destruction precisely as stated in both the Fatah Charter and the Hamas Charter. @annie Hmmm… I never claimed that 476 defined what was Jewish or Israeli I was simply replying to Talknic’s bogus interpretation And you are correct all or part of it could be Palestine by treaty but that is hardly a position endorsed on this blog it is mondocorrect to declare East Jerusalem as Palestinian And I have read the entirety of the comment policy including the part concerning personal attacks which you personally routinely ignore in favor of your like minded friends Rarely does a pro-Israeli comment pass without torrents of juvenile calling (who says stupid stupid man anyway?) It is abundantly clear that the site preference is not to encourage discussion between opposing views but to chase off whoever disagrees. At this point you have exposed yourself completely for the obvious religious messianic colonialist zealot that you are I grew up with the same kind of brainwashing as you Robert but I managed to open my eyes and escape and I wake up every morning really grateful that I did It seems that your programming runs very deeeeep Robert In fact I could hazard a guess that you may even live in a settlement I won’t bother to reply to your claim that your “homeland was occupied for over 2000 years” because really Robert at this point you should calm down and wait for the ambulance to arrive 2 men with white coats will give you a little injection give you a comfy jacket to wear (might be a bit tight) and take you somewhere where you are safe and will not be able to harm anyone anymore      S - Z  Wow ABC you are the first person I’ve encountered on this message board who is respectful and seeks genuine dialogue despite differences of opinion You’re definitely not blah By “ideally” if everyone would recognize Biblical Israel as the legitimate borders of modern Israel The reason I excluded Hizbullah is mostly because they are an evil pseudo-Muslim (“Islamist”) organization but also because they are Iranian Persians and enjoy little support from the native Lebanese Arabs be they Christian or Muslim And my point about who would rule there was simply to acknowledge that I don’t feel any Arab should have to leave his home simply because it happens to be in historic Eretz Yisrael nor should local gov’t change for that reason IOW I just wanted to answer your question directly without getting into the myriad political ramifications of those borders. There is nothing in 476 that defines part of Jerusalem as the State of Palestine There is nothing that precludes it from finally being recognized as Israel by treaty It does refer to Arab territories (noticeably avoiding the of a State thereby admitting it is not Palestine) but I reject your RACIST conclusion that it therefore belongs to Arabs There is nothing in 476 that defines Jerusalem as the jewish state There is nothing that precludes it from finally being recognized as The State of Palestine I reject your RACIST conclusion that it therefore belongs to Jews /wiki/United_Nations_Security_Council_Resolution_478 No modern conceptions of nationhood are modern not ancient ones That was precisely my point It’s hard for people stuck with their modern assumptions to realize that nationhood can look a bit different than what they’re used to The inclusion of religion as integral to nationhood is perfectly legitimate. Another irony: the semitic root P-L-SH means to invade It’s like Falasha in Ethiopian meaning “migrant” Of course the modern Palestinians simply took their from the of the British Mandate which in term had used the term that was accepted in Europe so the term is not actually descriptive of the Palestinians however the irony is palpable. “and while I prefer to keep these posts short I can’t just ignore your comment about the Palestinians suffering the longest most brutal occupation in history Seriously? To say that to a member of a nation whose homeland was occupied for over 2,000 years” Uh huh Say who did King David invade and occupy? “and whose people both in and out of the homeland were butchered by the millions” Not by any Palestinians of today buster Israel is colonizing non-Israeli territory TODAY! “and while I prefer to keep these posts short I can’t just ignore your comment about the Palestinians suffering the longest most brutal occupation in history Seriously? To say that to a member of a nation whose homeland was occupied for over 2,000 years and whose people both in and out of the homeland were butchered by the millions takes a special kind of chutzpah Hmm I guess that “bornajoo” moniker is literally correct! ” The real reason that the Palestinian issue is paramount in the UN and in international debate is because this dispute involves the Jews and the Holy Land If the Chinese had invaded you’d be as ignorant of this conflict as you are of Tibet-China. Yeah I just retracted that bizarre error which was first pointed out by Annie Anyway it was not at all related to the main point I was making there which is that Hizbullah is an Islamist organization and I wouldn’t wish their rule on anyone anywhere For example check out this fairly recent Pew research poll about the views of different national groups regarding Hizbullah: /fact-tank/2013/06/07/as-it-fights-in-syria-hezbollah-seen-unfavorably-in-region/ (SECOND CHART) Detailed report: /2013/06/07/hezbollah-topline-and-survey-methods/ By naturalisation (Arts 7–11): any person who is a naturalised Palestinian enjoys the same rights and duties as Palestinian citizens The High Commissioner may issue a naturalisation certificate if there is proof that the applicant: • has lived in Palestine for at least two to three years prior to applying to be naturalised; • is of good moral standing and has a sufficient knowledge of one of the three official Mandate languages English Arabic or Hebrew • intends to reside in Palestine if their application is accepted There is however the High Commissioner is not under obligation to grant a naturalisation certificate on presentation of proof of having met the conditions imposed by law He does not need to justify his refusal and his decision. You were unaware that the Palestinians demand the division of Jerusalem? That they have made it a red line issue? I seriously doubt that But nice attempt at a snarky comment. Bornajoo~ thank you for your comments compassion and obvious humanity ;-) Nice one Bumblebye! ;-) Maybe it’s from the same “Zionist Book of Facts” as ‘palestinian christians are not arabs’ or maybe he’s just got some bolts loose and thinks all shia muslims are persian You ought to check your facts before you lie Here’s just one example of thousands: . /books?id=BOg9AQAAMAAJ&q=palestinians&dq=palestinians&hl=en&sa=X&ei=XN-vVL9twaw9tsKAyAM&ved=0CDYQ6AEwBjge The term “Palestinians” was most often used to describe the Jews who lived in Palestine as opposed to the Babylonian Jews I don’t think I’ve ever seen a pre-20th century usage of “Palestinians” in reference to the Arabs of Palestine But you’re welcome to search Google Books or any other database for such a rare reference As for your other comment about the evidence for an ancient Jewish state it does not even merit a response OK one:. >> Robert in Israeleee: If you think that if Israel withdrew to the 1947 Partition Plan lines the Palestinian terrorist organizations and the Islamo-fascists would leave Israel alone then you are one naive person … Withdrawing to Partition borders would be the just thing to do but Zio-supremacists don’t like justice Or accountability Or equality Zio-supremacists seem to think that because the rapist’s victim might come after him with the cops – or with a knife – if he were to set her free the rapist is entitled: – to keep the victim chained in his basement; and – to continue raping her This they call “morality” (goal + methods). 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“they need to make concessions that ensure that the Palestinian entity (state or territory) does not constitute a major threat to the security of Israel” A) Palestine has never constituted a major threat to Israels security Israel being in and illegally acquiring non-Israeli territory constitutes a threat to Israeli security! B) All states have an equal legal right to armed forces for their own protection C) Israel has been illegally acquiring Palestinian territory for the past 67 years it is Palestine needs protecting not Israel! D) Palestine offered at the UN in front of the world to accept only 22% of its rightful territory for peace with Israel Israel ignored the offer and continued to expand its illegal facts on the ground IOW You’re spouting sh*te! Hey hophmi … you there? I asked a reasonable question … /2015/01/reporter-palestinians-concessions/comment-page-1#comment-735864 You are of course correct but I didn’t make those points in the context of justifying Israel Annie Robbins January 9 2015 4:44 am but I didn’t make those points in the context of justifying Israel. @ Robert in Israel “Bottom line: if the Palestinians and their supporters continue to insist that “the Palestinians have conceded too much” then you have guaranteed that the conflict will continue with pretty much the same results” The spokesperson for the thief has spoken Israel could simply get out of all non-Israeli territory It has never been tried “The sad thing is that what Israel demands has a lot less to do with territory and physical security and much more to do with psychological security.” Uh huh The sad thing is your drivel doesn’t pass So why is Israel building ILLEGAL settlements in non-Israeli territory Why has Israel remained on the same illegal territorial lusting clusterf*ck for 67 years /pDB7k-l5 It just occurred to me that I am missing an opportunity here to ask a question of a Zionist that is never asked enough If I gave you a pencil and paper and told you to draw the borders of Israel that you want the world to recognize where would they be? Please be specific. Listing authors with a political agenda to deny or support the Jews’ nationhood isn’t going to do much good in a discussion where the two discussion participants reject the political agenda of the respective authors on both sides So I suggest you give me your definition of a nation I’ll see if I have anything to add or subtract from your definition and then if we can agree on a working definition of nationhood we can then discuss what may or may not be lacking in the Jewish experience that would determine whether or not it is a nation. If the ICC wants to stay credible among people including its cosmopolitan intellectual base in the rest of the world the ICC would not focus on detaining Abbas or Palestinian officials because people particularly those intellectuals in the rest of the world see the Israeli state as the aggressor and abuser I understand that the argument could be made that Abbas or others were involved in terrorism at some point but the rest of the world is looking at Israeli abuses as the main aggression Besides that if the ICC wanted to detain Palestinians I don’t see why they wouldn’t have already just because their country wasn’t a member After all I don’t think Serbia needed to have joined the ICC for the ICC to charge Milosevic. If videos of Arabic language interviews with the original audio present for comparison to the English translations is not evidence there is no such thing as evidence @ Robert in Israel You’re hilarious Un-corroborated propaganda from Memri and PMW is not evidence Maybe you could start with yourself Start with Israel’s actual proclaimed and only recognized borders (in case you missed it the first time /whistlestop/study_collections/israel/large/documents/newPDF ) Those “ancient” borders of yours… are the ones that no archaeologist CAN’T agree … United Nations Security Council Resolution 478 adopted on 20 August 1980 is one of seven UNSC resolutions condemning Israel’s attempted annexation of East Jerusalem In particular UNSC res 478 notes Israel’s non-compliance with UNSC res 476[1] and condemned Israel’s 1980 Jerusalem Law which declared Jerusalem to be Israel’s “complete and united” capital as a violation of international law The resolution states that the Council will not recognize this law and calls on member states to accept the decision of the council This resolution also calls member states to withdraw their diplomatic missions from the city The resolution was passed with 14 votes to none against (“To publish a diversity of voices to promote dialogue on these important issues.” Flat. Can Rudoren be unaware of what this will do to her reputation? Oh well she would probably say ‘I got two words for you Mooser: Judith Fucking Miller!’ If you think that if Israel withdrew to the 1947 Partition Plan lines the Palestinian terrorist organizations and the Islamo-fascists would leave Israel alone then you are one naive person I mean just look at all the non-Palestinians on this website who can’t stand Israel and believe it should never have been created You can imagine that the hardline Palestinians feel a thousand times more hatred and anger Forget about how noble or purely practical such an Israeli retreat would be It’d basically be an act of national suicide for Israel to retreat to such borders Not only would we be compromising our security we’d be sending a message that the terrorists should keep applying the pressure Do you really think that organizations like Hamas ISIS Al-Qaeda etc are going to one day just say aw heck let’s drop our fight for ousting the Jews from Palestine? But in the end all this talk of borders and negotiations won’t get anywhere until there is “peace education.” I think “peace education” is a good idea and we can start with all those young Jewish thugs who are running around scrawling “death to the Arabs” and beating people up I know you will dismiss them as not representative but that’s not the point I hear Israeli politicians railing against Palestinian “incitement” and how they need to be more proactive against it Great how about Israeli society show us all how it is done And I don’t think Israel should be lecturing anyone on hate crimes when anti-racism there is looked as un-patriotic Anyway thanks for the response I have a feeling the discussion may continue. What you don’t uderstand is that: In the Mandatory text and in the reports made by the British Mandatory power Palestine was regarded as a territorial unit set apart from others Besides the Ottoman citizens who are considered Palestinians or who can apply for Palestinian citizenship in line with international law on the succession of states Palestinian citizenship can be acquired by birth naturalisation or permission Sure pal You’re not even aware Israel proclaimed its boundaries in order to be recognized /whistlestop/study_collections/israel/large/documents/newPDF >> Robert in Israel: Why do you deny the Jews the right to their homeland? No-one denies the right of Jewish Americans to live in their homeland of America of Jewish Germans to live in their homeland of Germany of Jewish Israelis to live in their homeland of Israel etc. @ Robert in Israel ” /wiki/1834_looting_of_Safed Also the fault of those awful post-1897 Zionists?” ??? If you say so Robert… BTW Wikipedia can be A) written by anyone Wikipedia’s editorial policy favors 3rd hand opinion based on verifiable 2nd hand opinion even if it is contrary to the truth contained in verifiable primary documents . /search?q=%22verifiability,+not+truth%22+Wikipedia B) The Wikipedia article addresses nothing in. @ Robert in Israel ” the Israelis have *everything* to lose Strange There are no UNSC resolutions against anyone for ever having threatened Israel’s actual proclaimed and recognized borders because no one has Although they refused to recognize Israel (recognition is not mandatory) the surrounding states had “respect for and acknowledgement of the sovereignty territorial integrity and political independence of” Israel and its “right to live in peace within secure and recognized boundaries free from threats or acts of force” according to International Law and the UN Charter /PDB7k-6r#unscresolution242 (Israel’s boundaries were “recognized” before Israel joined. “the Israel trip assisted in a healing of our people’s past Seeing how far the Israeli people have come in the development of their country and freedom healed the small part of me that was affected by the residential school system… As First Nations people we can learn from the Jewish people and we too can accomplish a lot We can overcome our past and become stronger as First Nations people We can make changes on the reservations and come together as a community to give our children a positive future We can work together to restore the lost connections that were broken in the dark era of residential schools.” (After doing some research the “residential schools” were boarding schools where Indian children were indoctrinated with various forms of Christianity I haven’t found yet what percentage identify with Christianity but it seems that many do though without foregoing their original spiritual beliefs. 1 – This paper addresses the status of the inhabitants of the territory that has become known as ‘Palestine’ and that had been part of the Ottoman Empire since 1516 during the period starting from the beginning of the British occupation on 9 December 1917 until the enforcement of the Palestinian Citizenship Order on 1 August 1925,1 from the perspective of international law 2 – Under the Turkish rule according to the Ottoman Nationality Law of 19 January 1869,2 Palestine’s inhabitants were Ottoman citizens At that time legally speaking there was nothing called Palestine Palestinian nationality or Palestinians neither was there anything called Israel Israeli nationality or Israelis 5 – In international law when a state is dissolved and new states are established “the population follows the change of sovereignty in matters of nationality.” And BTW I noticed your point “C” and its reference to 1947 so its clear you don’t think the Jews have any claim to their homeland or any national rights Why do you deny the Jews the right to their homeland? Isn’t that racist? Well I’m just glad none of “Robert in Israel”s arguments are made out of self-interest They are all the arguments of a person who will sacrifice much if he is right which makes them even more moving. @robert I didn’t base of of history I based it off of the definition of the word nation which I fail to see how jews meet when all the connection are solely based in religion and other ancient nations that are countries now actually meet the definition there was once an ancient hebrew people but modern jews have nothing in common with them outside of religion that i reject the fairy tale of jewish nationalism and am “intolerant” to it is not due to a culutaral bias but more due to the fact I’m literate and the armenians have a national idienty outside of religion jews don’t and i catagoricaly reject states for religions.

@ Robert in Israel “You want the dispossession of the Jews to remain permanent” … “And you can’t see anything wrong with Palestinians calling for genocide of the Jews” Around here people give evidence for their accusations You see false accusations are against the most basic of Judaisms tenets and people who make false accusations especially on behalf of the Jewish state are not welcome So some quotes please … thx … we’ll wait … we’ve waited for some people to give quotes and simple answers for years “The real reason that the Palestinian issue is paramount in the UN and in international debate is because this dispute involves the Jews and the. Calling us “Jews” means we are Judaeans so the Land of Judah is where we should go there are lots of looney-tune christian zionists who agree with you but clearly most american jews do not or else they would. There are a lot of other relevant passages but clearly Dr Qafisheh does not agree with you that Article 7 somehow undermines Zionist claims or bespeaks some longstanding Palestinian nationality and in fact exactly the opposite: he feels it was unfair to the Arabs of the Palestine Mandate Dr Qafisheh’s credentials: @ robert the term palestinian never meant jew that’s be rather difficult considering the etymology of the word predates archeological evidence of a jewish state the term means the samething its always meant a person who resides in palestine you could argue it means legal resident but no your point is nothing but a self serving lie palestinian never meant or refered to solely jews. In “Hidden Histories” you can read: debates about square Hebrew as merely a script variety of Aramaic… OR: The Ugaritic alphabet contains signs representing sounds that are exactly the same as the 28-letter Cana‛anite alphabet and the 28-letter Arabic alphabet—the only difference being that there are three signs for the aleph A respectable reference The World’s Writing Systems tells us that the wedge-shaped script records an inventory of sounds that is closer to that found in Classical Arabic (ca 28 sounds) than to that found in biblical Hebrew (ca 22 sounds)….Ugaritic-Arabic equivalence of many words like brq (meaning “lightning”) krm (“vineyard”) kf (transcribed as kp “palm of the hand”) mlk (“king”) mzn (“scale”) That’s right a Jewish State and an Arab State neither of which had at that time been d “lest you claim that the UN only recognized a secular state coincidentally called “Israel”” Problem with your bullsh*te The UN does not recognize states There is no UN vote to recognize states The UN admits (or not) already recognized states to its membership More problems with your ziodrool UNGA res 181 was written BEFORE any state was proclaimed and before any state was recognized Nothing you have brought to the table survives scrutiny nor does any of it justify Israel’s illegal acquisition of or its illegal behaviour in non-Israeli territories. The creation of the Jewish national home was not to prejudice “civil and religious rights” of non-Jews but national rights were only relevant vis a vis the Jews That was the very point of the Mandate Like it. @talknic I’m not saying it wasn’t but at the end of the day GA 181 is a clear violation of the UN charter requirment that states only be created via self determination the moment the majority of legal resident of palestine said they didn’t want their country divided anything else was illegal launching a war of conquest via armies created by european jews to conqueror territory I’m sorry but inside “Israel” or out its was still gained via conquest we should be willing to concede it but don’t lie and say it was given to jews they stole it with blood and iron just like everything else now I’m not saying at this point we should take a completely hardline stance if only because actualy trying to comply with the law now would require to much bloodshed but if we want a just resolution we need to call the spade a spade and that was all of the territory Israel has was gained via conquest. “but in case you think I’m only focused on Jewish suffering have you never studied the case of Tibet? Occupied and annexed by China since 1950 (after earlier sustained invasions) over 1.2 million Tibetans have been murdered — all non-combatants All but a handful of monasteries and shrines remain of the more than 6,000 that existed in 1950 China has continued to flood Tibet with Chinese settlers such that today ethnic Chinese are about 60% of the Tibetan population And political and religious rights remain highly restricted for ethnic Tibetans It should be noted that the Tibetans of course never used terrorism and never fired missiles at Chinese towns and villages But the world and the UN are mostly silent because no one with power really cares and everyone wants Chinese business.” Oh and by the way the Chinese occupation began 2 years later Israel first occupied Palestine in 1948 when you expelled over 750,000 Palestinians These events are referred to as The Nakba Oh and just in case you haven’t noticed (I forgive you as you are new here) that this particular website is called “Mondoweiss The War of Ideas in the Middle East” If you really are concerned about the issues in Tibet you might be on the wrong website Just thought I’d point that out in case you didn’t notice. As I’ve explained elsewhere your definition of “nation” is skewed by your cultural bias The Jews are an ancient nation and therefore religion is integral to the national identity Ditto for other ancient nations like the Armenians Modern nations had to reject religion as integral because they had to fight against other ethnic groups of the same religion So it was natural to see religion as distinct But that’s not a moral case just a politically expedient one. Yeah here are a couple of good lists of Israel’s repugnant activities: /headlines/top-22-ways-israel-aided-africa-in-last-three-years/ /articles/0,7340,L-4099881, (ESPECIALLY THE 5TH PARAGRAPH) @ Robert in Israel “The standard caveat in the corner is just to prevent testy people like you from attacking them for any errors” No buster it’s so people like you can’t claim it to be a UN map “concerning the legal status of any country territory city or area or of its authorities or concerning the delimitation of its frontiers or boundaries.” including Israel! The fact that Israel didn’t even exist as a legal entity at the time the map was drawn seems to escape you “The real point is that the UN voted Israel in as a country and recognizes its right to exist right where it is “ Uh huh That recognition did not include any territories the Israeli Government of May 22nd 1948 said were “outside the State of Israel” … “in Palestine” 4 The leaders should announce that the Palestinian state will protect the rights of those Jews who choose to stay in those Jewish towns and villages that end up in Palestinian territory They should not demand a Judenrein Palestinian state 5 No advanced weapons or missiles for the Palestinian army I think those 5 conditions are all reasonable and would suffice for nearly all Israelis in terms of providing the sense of security that is now totally lacking The most important elements are those related to education and. @ Robert in Israel “ the Palestinians continue to lose valuable assets such as security prosperity and territory You can’t tell me they have the same amount of these as they did 50 years ago.” Uh huh That’s right Israel has illegally acquired by war more than half of what remained of Palestine post 00:01 May 15th 1948 (ME time) /pDB7k-Xk “Right now the Palestinians continue to demand that there be two states: one on the east which is 100% Arab and one on the west which is over 50% Arab” The Palestinians claim only one state per UNSC res 1806 .org/apps/news ?NewsID=29495 And these are old reports- see the new ones!! Don’t use separate examples which do not represent the usual practice of the occupying force as a base for your argument! Read all those reports by OCHAoPT or Badil Adalah and other organisations on how Israel deals with those issues… Little digression here: Israel won’t recognize 1915 as Armenian Genocide: Israeli ambassador to Baku /israel-wont-recognize-1915-as-armenian-genocide-israeli-ambassador-to- ?pageID=238&nID=76711&NewsCatID=359 Zofia I don’t have time for megaposts so I’ll just respond to your first key point that the Mandate was not meant for the Jews Well that wasn’t my language What I said was that the goal of the Mandate was to establish a Jewish national home in Palestine Here’s the key part of Art 2 of the Mandate text: ART 2 “The Mandatory shall be responsible for placing the country under such political administrative and economic conditions as will secure the establishment of the Jewish national home as laid down in the preamble and the development of self-governing institutions and also for safeguarding the civil and religious rights of all the inhabitants of Palestine irrespective of race and religion.” Is that different from what I said? Looks pretty unambiguous. Hophmi never eats food for thought it might effect his appetite! ” Mooser Or worse still Soak up the ziocaine and cause reduced desired effects. Re your final point Israel definitely prosecutes Jews who commit hate crimes against Arabs and anti-racism is the norm I’m not sure where you’re getting your impressions from I wish you could come to Israel and see it for yourself Anyway here are a couple of links to examples of how the PA should be dealing with even attempts at terror and with acts of extreme incitement: /news/supreme-court-rejects-appeal-of-the-bat-ayin-underground- /site ?id=22181 As you can see my insistence on peace education is not trivial; it lies at the core of the conflict as it stands today. Heh ShuratHaDin has sued Jimmy Carter and the Presbyterian Church They sued Carter over alleged inaccuracies in his book under NYC consumer protection statutes protected consumers from misleading facts The ICC declined to investigate the Mavi Marmara massacre because *only* 10 civilian deaths didn’t rise to the level of severity to trigger jurisdiction. The British government admitted that representatives of the Zionist movement were consulted in “the Draft Palestine Citizenship Order in Council”; thus naturalization of Jews was facilitated through the provisions of the Order At the same time Britain found itself bound to regulate the inhabitants’ nationality pursuant to the international law of state succession as laid down in Articles 30-36 of the Treaty of Lausanne. And here we come to the problem of Transcriptions Many scholars both Western and Israeli tend to transcribe inscriptions in South Arabian (which like modern Arabic has 28 signs) Cana‛anite/Phoenician and Aramaic using the 22-letter “square Hebrew” (or square Aramaic) Even a standard and generally reliable reference The World’s Writing Systems arbitrarily decides to render the 30 alphabetic signs from Ugarit almost completely identical to Arabic in a chart that has “Ugaritic Scripts with Hebrew Equivalents.” At the same time the text tells us: “The wedge script records an inventory of sounds that is closer to that found in Classical Arabic (ca 28 sounds) than to that found in Biblical Hebrew (ca 22 sounds).” – in: Peter T Daniels and William Bright The World’s Writing Systems. Robert in Israel what’d you say if the – say – Hungarians suddenly felt the urge to return to their “eternal homeland” of the Ural Mountains after an exodus of 10000 years and insisted that Russia transferred the land to them I’m sure such territorial irredentism would not just apply to Jews would it? Come to think of it I wonder what kind of claims the numerous native tribes the Jews allegedly slaughtered and expelled from their “holy land” according to your scriptures would have Hmmm… seems pretty messy. All THIS IN:THE INTERNATIONAL LAW FOUNDATIONS OF PALESTINIAN NATIONALITY A Legal Examination of Palestinian Nationality under the British Rule. Robert in israel memri and pmw are hate sites and have been busted for fabrication and mistranslation and known liars don’t make good witnesses in a court of law even if something they may be saying at the time is in fact true i would advise one to avoid using our comment sections as a place to traffic those sources find other sources or another site besides MW to peddle their version of propaganda W Whitelam The Invention of Ancient Israel: The Silencing of Palestinian History L Thompson,The Mythic Past: Biblical Archaeology And The Myth Of Israel ,The shaping of Israeli identity:myth,memory,and trauma ,Israel:Politics Myths and Identity Crises ,The Sabra: the creation of the new Jew; ell,The Founding Myths of Israel:Nationalism Socialism and the Making of the Jewish State vel,Recovered Roots: Collective Memory and the Making of Israeli National Tradition 8 D.B Redford Egypt Canaan and Israel in Ancient Times Those are only a few from many other great books on the subject. You and most other posters here are very good at expressing their anger at Israel and its supporters but not very good at all at actually having a real dialogue When I say that “Israel has everything to lose” I’m speaking a psychological truth not an opinion that Israel is justified or not Bottom line: if the Palestinians and their supporters continue to insist that “the Palestinians have conceded too much” then you have guaranteed that the conflict will continue with pretty much the same results. “amigo I’m not sure what point you are trying to make here but for your convenience here is the official UN map of Israel: link to – “Robert in Israel Sorry to burst your zionist bubble but I suggest you read the note at the lower left corner of your hell let me save you the trouble “The designations employed and the presentation of material on this map do not imply the expression of any opinion whatsoever on the part of the Secretariat of the United Nations concerning the legal status of any country territory city or area or of its authorities or concerning the delimitation of its frontiers or boundaries.” Over to. Just how many more concessions should the palestinians make why doesn’t Israel ever have to make a concession? these people. Nation (n.) from Old French nacion “birth rank; descendants relatives; country homeland” (12c.) and directly from Latin nationem (nominative natio) “birth origin; breed stock kind species; race of people tribe,” literally “that which has been born,” from natus past participle of nasci “be born” (Old Latin gnasci; see genus) Political sense has gradually predominated but earliest English examples inclined toward the racial meaning “large group of people with common ancestry.” Older sense preserved in application to North American Indian peoples (1640s) Nation-building first attested 1907 (implied in nation-builder) (1) As a noun “citizen of a (particular) nation,” from 1887 National anthem first recorded 1819 in Shelley Related: Nationally…. Had consecutive Israeli Governments from the outset adhered to the legal obligations of statehood adhered to its boundaries adhered to its declaration withdrawn its forces from all non-Israeli territories not had illegal expansionist policies honored its obligations to all its citizens honored its promises to help implement UNGA res 181 instead of trashing it via Plan Dalet before even proclaiming statehood …. @ pjdude “talknic jews weren’t given a state they illegally seized one” Like it or not legal or not justifiable or not a specific territory was allocated for a Jewish state by a majority vote resulting in the adoption of UNGA res 181 Since proclaiming its sovereign extent in order to be recognized the State of Israel has illegally acquired territories “outside the State of Israel” … “in Palestine” Re who we negotiate with my line is that one can negotiate with rivals but not with sworn enemies So if an organization’s charter calls for Israel’s destruction I see negotiating as pointless and dangerous to the point of being immoral But if a Palestinian organization simply states that it believes the Palestinian Arabs have a right to self-determination but seeks a permanent peace with Israel then I have no problem negotiating with them Likewise I believe in the Jewish right to self-determination but am prepared to make a permanent peace with a Palestinian state in what we see as our homeland And likewise I would not expect a Palestinian to negotiate with the extremist Kach organization So who do you think Israel has been getting close to. “this Wikipedia map is close “ It’s actually ” the result of speculations “ /wiki/File ” I would leave … etc … etc …” Uh huh But you aren’t gonna do anything “if the Palestinians made the concessions I’ve written about elsewhere” The Palestinians are under no legal obligation what so ever to forgo ANY of their legal rights under the laws Israel agreed to uphold “That said no borders even with Israel getting just Tel Aviv will bring peace without a commitment to peace education.” When the European powers started to get interested in the Holy Land and especially Jerusalem they started to build consulates improve services provide jobs and also made deals with the Sultanate to ease up on the restrictions against non-Muslims This is why Jews started to move back in much larger numbers in the 19th century even before the Zionist movement worked on organizing “Aliyah” (“Going Up”) to the Land of Israel. How can you say the borders are not made up when their is zero evidence that the country your subscribing those borders to ever existed? again palestine cannot be the homeland of the jewish nation because their is no jewish relation or do catholics buddahisms and shintoists have homelands and are nations as well? and how could palestine be the homeland of a made up jewish nation for 3300 years when there is only evidence of a jewish state only goes back 3000? and the palestine is not derived from hebrew in fact the hebrew term probably comes from the same source as palestine the original egyptian Peleset which again predates archeological evidence of a jewish state. So please don’t tell me your explaining and to read.r funny the guy who is quoting only zionist sources telling someone to read sources i have read zionist sources they just fail to be convincing probably due to the fact they are lies so your not explaining anything your just repeating lies about why you and your should be allowed to get away with war crimes i suggest your read not that it would do you any good if its not in line with you bs you’ll refuse to even consider it your arrogant ignorant and little more than a thug in mentality. “more food for thought hopknee.” Hophmi never eats food for thought it might effect his appetite! But I would like to get it straight about all the poor schlimazels that Israel (“The transfer of Israeli citizens into the OPT”) allows into the ‘settlements’? On what basis do these folks believe that the Government of Israel will go to any length and all lengths to eventually incorporate them into Israel? Okay it’s just a tangent but that has always mystified me and maybe somebody could explain it. Both sides claim to have agreed to peace and the other side didn’t accept So now what? Yes Israel has to give up something But they won’t do it without at least the appearance of the PA doing the same What will that be? Forget rhetoric and supply something tangible. Hamas rightly has a caveat One idiots for Israel will never cite Article Thirty-One: “As to those who have not borne arms against you on account of religion nor turned you out of your dwellings Allah forbiddeth you not to deal kindly with them and to behave justly towards them; for Allah loveth those who act justly.” (The Tried – verse 8) “just look at all the non-Palestinians on this website who can’t stand Israel and believe it should never have been created” While a state is in breach of International Laws and a UN Charter adopted in large part because of the treatment of our Jewish fellows under the Nazis what’s to like about it? Israel is such a state BDS is not to destroy it’s to get that state as Sth Africa did to change course. It’s about piss-taking Zionism is a complete joke Do you ever actually read the whole article or just the parts that support your view? The thrust of the article was that Palestinian efforts internationally are putting pressure on Israel “And late in the piece there is this sop to Israel over possible war crimes charges” How is this a sop? It’s merely a statement of the complementarity principle The ICC cannot step in when national investigations have taken place or are ongoing. How are then the Palestinians to understand their history which both helped to create their institutions (like the Oslo Accords) and also compromised their national aspirations Almost any approach of their history would touch intense domestic and international controversy The distant past is used to serve national needs religious and national identities are implemented and reinforced since their first curriculum puts the emphasis on nationalism Given the opportunity to write a comprehensive curriculum for the first time the authors inserted national symbols in every conceivable location and illustration. @ Robert in Israel ” What I said was that the goal of the Mandate was to establish a Jewish national home in Palestine” You’re full of Red Heifer shite pal It was one of many goals for the State of Palestine a state that had provisional recognition FIRST line (referring to art 22 LoN Covenant) of the Mandate FOR Palestine See also Article 7 under which Jewish folk could get Palestinian citizenship under the Palestinian Nationality law “The creation of the Jewish national home was not to prejudice “civil and religious rights” of non-Jews but national rights were only relevant vis a vis the Jews” Problem … the Palestinians already had national rights in Palestine as Palestinian citizens rights that were further codified under the Palestinian Nationality Law. @robert (Please ignore similar comment as did not publish correctly – this is the correct one) “Did you ever give a moment’s thought to the fact that the Palestinians have always had *plenty* to lose? Because of their (and your) inability to make concessions that address Israeli concerns the Palestinians continue to lose valuable assets such as security prosperity and territory You can’t tell me they have the same amount of these as they did 50 years ago And they certainly have been losing valuable time. Oh pleeeaaaase nothing in your posts resemble ‘scholarly’ in the least it’s the most shoot from the hip repetitive bs advanced level hasbara talking pts we’ve had here for awhile but you’re offering zilch in terms of counter arguments Completely ad hoc arguments that have no value They keep their jobs because of tenure not academic brilliance #massivefail Fatimid Caliphate period World map CE by Beatus of Liébana @ Robert in Israel “modern Israel is maintaining the tradition of having a Jewish state that allows for a large non-Jewish population on which it bestows the same civil (but not national) rights it does to its Jewish citizens” Traditional apartheid … interesting observation Robert ” Contrast that with the almost unanimous position of the Palestinian negotiators who demand that their state be emptied of all Jews” Care to provide a quote Robert … thx Otherwise folk might be forgiven for thinking you’re spewing Ziopoop What was said is quite normal for states All citizens of Israel are Israeli right? All citizens of Britain are British right? So why should Palestine have Israeli citizens? “As for your “scholars” and the Israeli “scholars” in particular I’m quite familiar their writings “ Ayyubid and Mamluk periods Palestina on the Fra Mauro map 1459 Map of Palestine published in Florence 1482 and included in the Francesco Berlinghieri expanded edition of Ptolemy’s Geographia (Geography) Mondoweiss brings you the news that no one else will Your tax-deductible donation enables us to deliver information analysis and voices stifled elsewhere Please give now to maintain and grow this unique resource. “Pro-Israeli” position is that the Palestinians must agree to Israeli demands that Palestinians mus have no army palestine already agreed to a de-militarized state exposed once in the palestine papers and another time in 2011 in their proposal requested by the quartet. @yonah actually i said only nations have homelands i can of the top of my head think of several national homelands that aren’t based on ethnicity the USA being the obvious one the former piecemeal state of italy and germany being others but case in point jews don’t have everything that other nations have they don’t have any sort of cultural connection to each other outside of the jewish faith which is kind of important in trying to claim their more than a religion hell even the language can’t really be used as its a modern version of what was a dead language so there is no culture no language nothing i can see for connections that aren’t purely there because of the religion its not so much a decree as recognizing despite attempt of zionists to lie jews don’t meet the definition of a nation i’m sorry just because their terror campaign to get a state worked doesn’t mean their actually a nation. C) What happened prior to 00:01 May 15th 1948 (ME time) when Israel’s proclaimed boundaries came into effect and were recognized /whistlestop/study_collections/israel/large/documents/newPDF is completely irrelevant to the current legal status of Israeli sovereignty and its illegal activities as the Occupying Power since 1948 over territories “outside the State of Israel” … “in Palestine” You realize how disconnected these zio journalists are when you read their ridiculous articles Never in the history of a military occupation will one find the brutal occupier expecting the occupied to give in so much sacrifice so much pretending to be the victim and expecting the majority of the powerless people to keep assuring the OCCUPIER (the side with the power brutal armed forces and the deadliest weapons) that IT will be secure and safe This is sheer bull shet and Rudoren rolls in it When it comes to the I/P situation the NYT’s has lost all credibility for publishing totally biased articles all showing concern not for human rights and basic rights but for protecting a war criminal      A - C  Tough for you Israel was proclaimed and recognized as it asked to be recognized “as an independent republic within frontiers approved by the General Assembly of the United Nations in its Resolution of Novem and that a provisional government has been charged to assume the rights and duties of government for preserving law and order within the boundaries of Israel for defending the state against external aggression and for discharging the obligations of Israel to the other nations of the world in accordance with international law The Act of Independence will become effective at one minute after six o’clock on the evening of 14 May 1948 Washington time” /whistlestop/study_collections/israel/large/documents/newPDF Ok how about this: ?action=article_details&title=How+Israel+Changed+My+Life&id=303 “How Israel Changed. [Palestine Ancient] Palaestina (507K) From “A Classical Atlas to Illustrate Ancient Geography; Comprised in Twenty-Five maps Showing the Various Divisions of the World as Known to the Ancients; Composed from the Most Authentic Sources.” by Alexander G Findlay F.R.G.S 1849. What complicates the problem here more than elsewhere are not just the linguistic intricacies but more immediately the contention or pretense by Zionist scholars and naming committees that they were restoring the “original” s Ashkelon and Acco both without the initial guttural ̔a… In fact s like “Ashkelon” and “Acco” have come about through a transcription tradition (which distorted many sounds) and were thus accepted in Jewish and Western usage In other words they are Israeli reinstatements of variants that are in effect fossils rather than originals… Zionist claims assume that the Arabic forms are more recent and arose after the Arab/Muslim “conquest” in 638 ce which changed or “distorted” place s as if Arabic were a totally foreign language alien to its region. About Hamas (books and other info): /2014/12/caroline-palestinian-refugees#comment-732671      L - R  1100-27: Fulcher of Chartres Historia Hierosolymitana (1095-1127): “For we who were Occidentals have now become Orientals He who was a Roman or a Frank has in this land been made into a Galilean or a Palestinian.”[131] Fetellus “The city of Jerusalem is situated in the hill-country of Judea in the province of Palestine” [132] 1154: Muhammad al-Idrisi Tabula Rogeriana or The Book of Pleasant Journeys into Faraway Lands[119][133] 1173: Ali of Herat Book of Indications to Make Known the Places of Visitations[119] 1177: A Brief Description by Joannes Phocas of the Castles and Cities from the City of Antioch even unto Jerusalem; also of Syria and Phoenicia and of the Holy Places in Palestine[134][135] : William of Tyre Historia Hierosolymitana[136] 1185: Ibn Jubayr The Travels of Ibn Jubayr[119] The Muslims didn’t conquer the Arabs! There was no Arabic spoken in Palestine before the Arab invasion Most of the inhabitants were still Jews but there were also a lot of Christian and pagan Romans So yes the Arabs are absolutely occupiers I can relate to your accusation against me about repeating lies to try to justify war crimes because that’s exactly how I feel about you and most of the posters here It’d be nice though if you and the others stuck to discussing specific ideas and claims and stopped the incessant insults and bombastic rambling accusations It accomplishes nothing. Or of the Arabs to live in Arabia… BTW calling us “Jews” means we are Judaeans so the Land of Judah is where we should go. As for your “scholars” and the Israeli “scholars” in particular I’m quite familiar their writings and it is well known that they draw bull’s eyes and then draw circles around them Completely ad hoc arguments that have no value They keep their jobs because of tenure not academic brilliance. On page 72: Palestinian nationality existed despite a lack of comprehensive legislative regulation On page 73: This British practice was in line with the overall British policy towards Palestine at the time Such policy was included in a statement presented to the British Parliament by the Secretary of State for the Colonies on 23 June 1922 (commonly known as ‘the White Paper’) Among other things the White Paper declared: [I]t is contemplated that the status of all citizens of Palestine in the eyes of the law shall be Palestinian and it has never been intended that they or any section of them should possess any other juridical status. When it comes to language remember that sounds are important not their representation in writing Having this in mind: scholars don’t know where Cana‛an the alphabet originated—though southern Palestine near the borders of Egypt seems the more probable geography in view of the discovery of a proto-alphabet at Serabit el Khadim It used pictures of common objects to represent their initial sounds in the form of 28 letters in writing For example first sign stood for the three long vowels a-u-e (alif).The next basic letter B comes from beit which meant “house” in Cana‛anite (and still means “house” in Arabic). 1 All Palestinian leaders must forbid incitement to genocide of the Jews Example: Palestinian preachers who encourage their listeners to prepare for the killing of all the Jews should be put in jail not paid salaries Palestinian media should also be forbidden from gross incitement The current situation is the exact opposite 2 The leaders should announce that they are prepared for an eternal peace with Israel and not just 10 years as limited by extremist Islamists This attitude should be taught in schools and not as taught now that one day they will conquer everything 3 The leaders should announce that in a permanent settlement whatever number of Arabs are allowed to settle in Israel proper (<250k) will be the final number and that future repatriations will have to suffice with settling in the Palestinian state. Btw Paleshet/Philistia was not the whole of the Holy Land but just the area of the modern Gaza Strip and a bit beyond The Philistines invaded the coast from one or more nearby Mediterranean islands but disappeared by the Assyrian invasion of 722 BCE There is actually almost no evidence for the existence of the Philistines outside of the Bible so it’s very hard to draw too many conclusions but obviously their appearance in the Bible wouldn’t undermine the Bible In any case because the Romans initially called the land they had conquered from the Judaeans “Judaea” just as the Jews/Judaeans called it many scholars have presumed that the change after the Bar Kochba revolt in 132-135 was an attempt by Hadrian to punish the Jews by renaming the land after their old-time traditional coastal enemies However I’ve never seen any proof of this speculation as reasonable as it. @ Robert in Israel (I’d love to know just where in Israel you actually live Robert) “We’re expected to say ‘Oh yeah at some point our eternal right just evaporated.'” Just wondering exactly how you think you obtained that “eternal right.” “Every generation of Jews whether in the Holy Land or in the Diaspora always dreamed of the restoration of Jewish sovereignty in the Holy Land The fact that we were oppressed and powerless only explains why it took so long; ” “… it does not justify the ripping away of our homeland.” I guess the oppressed and powerless Palestinians could use the. Robert in Israel… “We want to live in security whether you like it or not ” >>>>>>>>>>>> You will never live in security because your criminal behavior is repugnant and unacceptable to most of the world And you create more enemies for yourself every day God speed to your cult as it keeps riding to its Appointment in Samara. @annie “lol wow where did you come up w/this hezbollah is not arab?” From the Zionist Book of Facts printed by Hasbara Publications available at Delusional Books located in mythical Greater Israel Robert that the fact that you and other zionist thieves don’t see yourselves as thieves is rather irrelevant its an irrefutable fact you are and that you see those 5 conditions as reasonable shows you for the thug. You have Israel you silly silly person Go live there get out of Palestine it isn’t Israeli ” I’ll never agree to that absurd double standard “ What double standard YOURS You’re the one denying non Jewish Israelis the right to return to Israel AND denying the right of Palestinians to return to Palestine “Every generation of Jews whether in the Holy Land or in the Diaspora always dreamed of the restoration of Jewish sovereignty in the Holy Land” Go yell at the Zionist Federation and the Jewish agency you stupid person they’re the people who demanded a separate state Proclaimed it had it recognized committed Israel to adhere to the law and UN Charter It’s called Israel go live there and stop moaning! Amigo I’m not sure what point you are trying to make here but for your convenience here is the official UN map of Israel: .org/Depts/Cartographic/map/profile Like many Israelis I don’t think these lines are just but they are internationally recognized Now I’ve got an exercise for you Amigo Could you please post a pre-20th-century reference to the Palestinians? I’d appreciate that. But this is just one more case I’m challenging you to read a lot of such journal entries from a range of periods I can assure you from personal experience that the evidence will become overwhelming Then you’ll just have to decide whether you can deal with reality or not And that’s why that one incident I cited is indeed an eloquent response to all of your baseless accusations Zionism isn’t to blame for Arab/Muslim violence because the latter started way before Zionism Period. Tough Go yell at the Israeli Government Tell ’em to get out of all non-Israeli territory BTW what ‘last war’? There has never been a peace treaty between Israel and Palestine the same war between Israel and Palestine has been raging since 00:01 May 15th 1948 (ME time) when Israel’s boundaries came into effect with Jewish forces under Plan Dalet already outside of those boundaries “Do you seriously expect us to experiment with a full-blown state capable of launching far more powerful guided missiles?” “sorry but we Jews have no intention of doing what the British settlers did in America and Australia in order to set up their new countries in foreign lands.” “You Jews” did – and are still doing – that sort of thing to set your country in a land foreign to a lot of you “BTW 20% of Israel’s population is Arab and they DO have full civil rights.” Except for 50 or so discriminatory laws and practices Not much in the way of rights for those in the occupied territories though ” but rather our eternal homeland which we liberated as is the legitimate right of dispossessed nations.” The NY Times is pushing this line in reaction to the Palestinians’ joining the ICC that Palestinians can *now* being charged by the ICC” But the path forward may be slow and bumpy International Criminal Court investigations take years and the court’s involvement also opens Palestinians to war-crimes charges for among other things firing rockets at Israeli civilians Shurat HaDin an Israeli legal group filed complaints with the Hague-based court on Monday against three Palestinian officials including the prime minister and security chief after earlier doing so against Mr Abbas and Khaled Meshal of Hamas ~From Rudoren’s article Palestinians Set to Seek Redress in a. Zofia that is so interesting looked up one of the books you mentioned for the graph “Peter T Daniels and William Bright The World’s Writing Systems” and keep scrolling graphs First off their previous sovriegnty is irrelevant as for 1 unlike you there not basing their claim onto that 2 once the accepted means of creating a new country was self determination not conquest being the native population was enough and their was no arab conquest of palestine there was a muslim one but it was of conquerring the already present arab population what gives is the palestinians are basing their claims on self determination of being the legal resident population in the territory no myths required there are only facts you how ever are demanding a jewish state with borders as stated in the bible which have zero basis in any sort of fact if the palestinians made the same sort of bs claims your making i’d knock them just. And about Jerusalem you are also wrong…where do you get your info? AGAIN: /2014/11/netanyahus-battle-jerusalem#comment-724853 /2014/11/netanyahus-battle-jerusalem#comment-725256 Besides isn’t this conversation a little foolish? there were hardly any jews there for the last 1000 years if they wanted to get back there so much they could have started walking a long time ago i could really care less who was living there 3000 years ago why should we care about that or give it any credence today wrt a state that was formed 67. Atlantaiconoclast joemowrey and G Seauton for what it’s worth I fully agree with you The Nyt is a disgraceful piece of Establishment propaganda designed to make you think it is a genuine left leaning intellectual and honest news source This has recently been confirmed again by tracking it’s coverage of the situation in Ukraine (as G seauton pointed out) The Nyt along with nearly all the msm is printing the false crap dictated by the evil doers in Washington and has nothing to do with reality just as we see with the i/p issue I tend to stay away from the msm as a real news source these days but I track their coverage on a few issues. Crusaders period Tabula Rogeriana showing “Filistin” in Arabic in the middle of the right. In Israel only one soldier has been convicted for a wartime abuse: he got seven months in prison for the theft of a credit card The New York Times should have provided this “context,” so we could judge how well these investigations are likely. More about the language (and bibliography about it can be found in B Ra’ad’s Hidden History) Some info here: /2014/04/limbaugh-company-blumenthal#comment-660103 They’re the borders accepted and proclaimed and recognized Go bitch to the Jewish Agency and the Zionist Federation or demanding a separate Jewish state when Jews already had the right to a homeland as Palestinians Even before Balfour Jews could AND DID immigrate buy land settle anywhere in the Jewish People’s historic homeland and become citizens Go bitch to the Jewish Agency and Zionist federation for planning to colonize all of Palestine Go bitch to consecutive Israel Governments for digging a deeper and deeper ‘illegal facts on the ground’ hole and LYING to its citizens about its borders for 67 years “Not only would we be compromising our security we’d be sending a message that the terrorists should keep applying the pressure.” You need to read real history books 200 years? Seriously?? Try 2,000 years and actually there were always Jews living in the Land of Israel and always Jews trying to live here despite the extreme suppression of basic rights especially by the Arab Muslim occupiers So Jewish numbers dwindled until the beginning of the 19th century i.e 100 years before Zionism influenced more Jews to come But l can’t spend all my time explaining all this Read Really read Not just material you’re comfortable with. Fervent dreams of Jewish supremacism – of any form of supremacism – should not be realized. I would tell you just how hot my comments are except for the fact they’ve never been described as. Wrong it is you who is incapable of dialogue repeating insane sociopathic demands is not dialogue recognizing peoples wants and needs is and actually talking is dialogue you want to have a real dialogue its simple quit issuing criminal demands and start acting like a decent human beings I’m sorry you feel people not kowtowing to your and your your countries demands but dialogue requires a give and take all you want is. The British-run Government of Palestine naturalized certain groups of foreign residents in the country to enable them to participate in the legislative election in accordance with the Palestine Legislative Council Election Order in Council of residents were mostly immigrants Jews. On page 76:Using ‘nationality’ and ‘citizenship’ in this article implied that both terms were synonymous It also demonstrated that the definition of nationality was considered to presume the existence of a legal relationship between the individuals and Palestine as a mandated territory or as a state In other words Palestinian nationality at least in the way in which it was ‘framed’ was not based racial religious or other political considerations Indeed “la citoyenneté palestinienne n’est pas une nationalité juive”; nor equally was such ‘citoyenneté’ deemed to be “une nationalité arabe” Therefore “under Article 7 of the Mandate the intention to take up permanent residence in Palestine is a sine qua non in the case of those Jews whose acquisition of Palestinian citizenship is to be facilitated” Seriously? You want Israel to follow the lead of those who gave small-pox infest blankets to the native Americans killed tens of thousands in wars and moved the survivors hundreds of miles to more convenient lands? And you want us to follow the lead of those who decimated the Aboriginal population and then stole babies from the surviving families? Sorry but we Jews have no intention of doing what the British settlers did in America and Australia in order to set up their new countries in foreign lands BTW 20% of Israel’s population is Arab and they DO have full civil rights And we did it without the kind of mass murder that the British used and without settling in a foreign land but rather our eternal homeland which we liberated as is the legitimate right of dispossessed nations. “they need to make concessions that ensure that the Palestinian entity (state or territory) does not constitute a major threat to the security of Israel ” And how are concessions supposed to achieve that? The best way to ensure a state is not a threat to your state is to have friendly relations with that state The Swedes do not see Norway or Denmark as security threats The US does not expect to see columns of Canadian tanks pouring into North Dakota And a good starting point for friendly relations is justice. Demand the division of jerusalem? you mean relinquish their right for their capital there so jews can continue ethnically cleansing palestine from the very people who built the city? oh no you gotta another thing coming that aint gonna happen big shot how ’bout palestine buy you out what’s jerusalem worth to you you price and don’t say it’s not for sale that line’s been taken what chutzpa! @robertinisrael If Israelis have “everything to lose” it’s because they have stolen just about everything in Palestine they could get their hands on and they aren’t willing to give any of it back “If the Palestinians expect Israel to risk its entire future by giving land and control to them…” The Palestinians have never expected Israel to give them land or anything else They have merely asked for what is mandated under international law They would like that which has been stolen from them to be returned. All states have equal right to self defense by arms You expect people to live without defenses next to Israel a rogue state that threatens by having nukes? A state in breach of hundreds of UNSC resolutions? A state that has been illegally acquiring other folks territories for 67 years? “You can pretend that the Palestinians don’t want to harm Israeli civilians but the truth is they do and they will” So get out of their rightful territories It is quite simple They only claim 22% of what is rightfully theirs /e9p5s8u2yhcd Go yell at the Israeli Government BTW The IDF memorial site shows us that more Israeli military have been targeted injured and killed than have Israeli civilians “So if you want to ensure that there is never an agreement just keep telling the Palestinians not to make any concessions” Just sent off an order to Amazon – thanks Zofia! But Israel haters insist that the Palestinians shouldn’t have to make concrete guarantees … the palestine hater speaks! what’s good for the goose is good for the gander how ya like those ad hominems applied to you Call it speculation but my personal analysis i’ll call it highly biased bs Let’S focus on the clips I posted hmm not really you’ll have to get find a more credible source first Please direct me to at least one well-documented case of fabrication or serious mis-translation at MEMRI and/or PMW here’s a tad of my “supporting evidence” (re your now trashed spamming comment) do your own homework /2012/09/friedmans-mirror /security/2011/08/12/294357/state-department-memri-neocon/ /2009/10/politics-us-pro-israel-group39s-money-trail-veers-hard-right/ The front page of the New York Times today carries a long news analysis by Jerusalem bureau chief Jodi Rudoren on the Palestinians’ bid for international recognition The thrust of the article is that the Palestinians are going too far too fast We learn that the strategy has “upset Washington,” and a former Israeli general at a pro-Israel DC thinktank explains that the world is being “ushered into a new era of political and legal conflict” — and that’s “a dangerous game.” But let me focus on two egregious statements in the article Second paragraph: Incitement to Genocide “Incredibly Common in Israeli Political Discourse” Deputy Speaker of Israeli Knesset Called for Expulsion and Jewish Reoccupation of Gaza /incitement-to-genocide-incredibly-common-in-israeli-political-discourse/5396420 @ Robert in Israel “If you think that if Israel withdrew to the 1947 Partition Plan lines the Palestinian terrorist organizations and the Islamo-fascists would leave Israel alone then you are one naive person” I believe as did Schwebel Lautherpacht and Herzog that if you illegally acquire other folks territory by force of arms dispossessing the inhabitants of the territories you lust after which Israel has done since the day its proclaimed boundaries were 1st recognized those enemies Israel has created have a right to restore their territory by force of arms and; only when people are aware of Israel’s actual proclaimed boundaries can they see who the real culprit is and where the answer to peace actually lies Other posts by. So even if Israel never annexed anything out side of its borders it would still be illegal because it would be declaring territory belong to another state as belonging to it the moment the mandate ended sovriegnty and control immiedently was vested into the provisionally stated country of palestine the Israelly decleration of independence was nothing less than a decleration of war and intent to conqueror. The Muslim population of Jerusalem has expanded since 1967 largely because Israel has on at least three occasions redefined the municipal boundaries outward. In my mother tongue this type of situation is described as “negocjacje [dialog] dupy z batem” which translates ” negotiations [dialogue] of an arse with a whip” Note the favorite pundit phrase “necessary painful concessions”. Roha you claimed that Israel has “50 or so discriminatory laws and practices” in response to my statement that Arab Israelis have full civil rights Please cite even just 1 of the 50 Hint: Don’t bother quoting the laws found on the Adalah website (which of course is where you lifted the line about 50 or so laws) First Adalah confuses affirmative action with violations of civil rights That’s a false conclusion but at least it’s not laughable However that’s just one part of Adalah’s dishonest claim Here’s a great example of what. That was just one of many crimes committed by IDF commandos who attacked civilian passengers on the first Freedom Flotilla killing ten unarmed passengers on board MAVI MARMARA These pirates stole cameras money credit cards & cell phones from passengers on all the boats I guess murder was OK; using a stolen credit card. To sum up: citizens of Palestine were Arabs and local Jews Special legal procedures had to be implemented to make the Jewish immigrants citizens (since they weren’t Ottoman citizens,etc) The British even prevented real Palestinians (born in Palestine etc) from formally obtaining the citizenship- like in the case of a Palestinian who had gone beyond the boundaries of Turkey (for business or trip) at that time (M Qafisheh The International Law Foundations of Palestinian Nationality) So again you were wrong M Qafisheh The International Law Foundations of Palestinian Nationality Asem Khalil Palestinian Nationality and Citizenship. “the fact that we were oppressed and powerless only explains why it took so long; it does not justify the ripping away of our homeland” Drivel A) In the 2,000 years since the Roman era til 1948 Jews could and thousands did return to the Jewish People’s Historical homeland and gain citizenship and buy land and settle B) Again you’re whining at the wrong people Go kvetch at the Zionist Federation and the Jewish agency they’re the people who demanded a separate state It’s called Israel get out of Palestine go live in Israel and stop your incessant moaning! Justjessetr ” Israel has to give up something” The Palestinians ask only for their LEGAL rights which does not involve Israel giving up anything Israeli ” But they won’t do it without at least the appearance of the PA doing the same” Palestine is ready to conceded the 56% of Palestine Israel proclaimed May 15th 1948 and is also willing to accept only 22% of what remained for peace with Israel /e9p5s8u2yhcd A point people like you MUST ignore to continue posting your idiotic propaganda mantras “What will that be? Forget rhetoric and supply something tangible” The majority of Palestinian territory isn’t tangible? WOW! Going for the greed record. Please allow me to paraphrase a bit ‘Did you ever give a moments thought that the longer I keep the victim tied up in my basement being continually raped and brutalised that while she’s down there I’m free to ransack and steal more and more of her possessions If the victim agreed to be freed under my strict terms my conditions over my continual domination being forever beholden to me as her superior master well then I would have let her out ages ago! I mean right now she still has 3 fingers on each hand and 4 toes on each foot I’m only asking her to give up a further full leg and one arm and I’ll let her out!’ “Right now the Palestinians continue to demand that there be two states: one on the east which is 100% Arab and one on the west which is over 50% Arab Do you really think any country would agree to such an arrangement if put in Israel’s situation?” “but in attempt to break the gridlock on this point consider this: the term Palestine began in the late Roman era as a Latin…” Another interesting little snippet True or not it’s completely irrelevant to Israel’s actual proclaimed and recognized boundaries and Israel’s illegal activities in territories “outside the State of Israel” … “in Palestine” Best you take your pathetic whining to the Zionist Federation and the Jewish Agency I wonder who else on what other story finds the NYT to be a propaganda machine? It can hardly be only I/P can it? In the 1980s NYT did a better job Sometime since then they’ve joined the ranks of the hasbaristas (on at least. When it comes to that UN Israel “Jewish state” thing of yours… Well for starters read: The Myth of the U.N Creation of Israel by J.R Hammond UN partition plan envisioned that there would be a Palestinian Arab majority in the “Jewish” part (Arabs= Jews= in Ad Hoc Committee on the Palestinian Question Report of Sub-Committee 2: .org/pdfs on page 41)- Zionists knew that very well… Palestinian support for the partition wouldn’t change much regarding Zionist political strategy… Plus right after the vote Jews attacked Palestinian villages and people Gurion even ordered to attack the villages that signed a non-aggression pact- he wanted to provoke Palestinians to fight (in Simha Flapan The Birth of Israel). @robert what makes your myths so special that they get to be tresated as historical fact? bibilical israel was a myth it never existed so what your really saying is you made up a bunch of borders based on a country that never existed and demand a country based on that? does that mean i can make up borders for a mythical state and claim those borders I’d be willing to treat you as honest if you willing to deal with the actual borders of the kingdom on Israel and hell since i’m a nice guy i’ll let you include the borders of the kingdom of judah but to insist on bibl;ical bordefrs is literally demanding reasonable people to admit to a. They’re not legally obliged to forgo any of their legal rights so Israel can keep what is not legally Israel’s However unlike Israel who has only offered to take non-Israeli territory the Palestinians have offered in front of the world at the UN to accept only 22% of their rightful territory for peace with Israel /e9p5s8u2yhcd An incredibly generous offer Israel ignored it and continued to illegally expand its illegal settlements Go yell at the Israeli Government “And BTW I noticed your point “C” and its reference to 1947 so its clear you don’t think the Jews have any claim to their homeland or any national rights Why do you deny the Jews the right to their homeland? Isn’t that racist? “ @ Robert in Israel “By “ideally” if everyone would recognize Biblical Israel as the legitimate borders of modern Israel.” Ideally countries should recognize their own proclaimed borders Why should Israel be any different? “The reason I excluded Hizbullah is mostly because they are an evil pseudo-Muslim (“Islamist”) organization but also because they are Iranian Persians and enjoy little support from the native Lebanese Arabs be they Christian or Muslim” Hezbollah are native Lebanese Arabs Christians Muslims even atheists They’re the official Lebanese resistance movement Since their forming the Lebanese military have not engaged with Israel See UNSC res 1701 Lebanon does not want a war between states Israel threatens all its neighbours and even further afield by having nukes. Thank you Bornajoo! :) I also would like to thank Talknic for his comments!:) They are awesome!:) As for Israel “making sure the Palestinian entity does not constitute a major threat to the security of Israel” there is nothing on earth that will get Israel to ever feel secure Feeling insecure is essential to Israel’s needs Feeling insecure has justified every massacre conducted by Israel in Gaza every attack on any Palestinian every demolished Palestinian home every illegal settlement built on Palestinian land every denial of Palestinian human rights or human dignity In short every violation of international law committed by Israel is defended on the basis of its need to feel secure Feeling insecure has garnered tens of billions of U.S taxpayer dollars to protect Israel’s security The ones who are desperately in need of security are the Palestinians. ” so I’m setting the record straight It was a temporary citizenship until the Mandate would be ended” Strange I can’t find that anywhere in the LoN Mandate for Palestine HELP! You’re so clever you can read things that don’t exist ” Stop changing historical facts to suit your politics” Save it pal I’ve not changed anything Good luck with your article! If you will need sth just write :) I will try to help:) I like searching for new info:) Zofia January 9 2015 3:47 pm EDUCATION: Once again the NYT readers’ comments are instructive How long can they keep on offending them like this? You can bet that for every reader who comments or recommends a post online there are a score more who quietly agree. @ Robert in Israel “Talknic you seriously project on to others your own failings” Care to elucidate as to what these failings are Robert … thx “.And as for the “Palestinian citizenship” you keep quoting that was vis a vis the British Mandate not some mythical Palestinian state that once existed” Mmmm… I wonder what was meant by Palestinian citizenship per Article 7 of the LoN Mandate for Palestine And what was meant in the same document by Palestinian Nationality Law and; why was the reference to Palestine’s provisional recognition included in the League of Nations Mandate for Palestine first line? ” I know you know that but you keep hoping that others who don’t like to read will believe you” That’s why I link to every point made Right … I’ll have to remember not to give any sources Your answer is bs the true question isn’t Israels security from palestine it neither deserves nor should expect security from it it should be what needs to be done to protect palestinian security from Israel the criminals “rights” are less than that of his victim Oh my Catch up you silly silly person That right was exercised 00:01 May 15th 1948 (ME time) /whistlestop/study_collections/israel/large/documents/newPDF “but am prepared to make a permanent peace with a Palestinian state in what we see as our homeland” Tough pal What you ‘see’ is not Israeli and it is against the basic tenets of Judaism to covet other folks territory ” I mean that if I saw a chance for real peace” Perhaps if you looked ” … I’m not sure how many are willing to make a permanent peace involving less than their own maximalist dreams” @ robert your only proving my point and i did read actual archeologically based evidence so i tell you read something other than your big book of jewish fairy tales and maybe you’ll quit demanding Israel be given borders to represent a fictious state the united monarchy never existed there was a kingdom of Israel and a kingdom of judah which were eventually absorbed into more powerful states the fact remains the palestinians are the true indigenous people and modern jews for the most part interlopers. The everything that Israel has to lose is everything it has stolen hot comment oldgezzer @ Robert in Israel “The Palestinians who have American citizenship don’t plan on giving up their dream of returning to Palestine “ So what? Why should they? Palestine isn’t Israel “Even the ones who want to stay in America say that wherever Palestinians are they should be allowed to return” Correct to Palestine It’s a LEGAL right “Ask a Palestinian when their national right to Palestine ends and he’ll say “Never!”” Correct as long as a refugee does not take permanent citizenship in a country other than that of return they have a right to return to their country Where’s the problem pal? “But for some mysterious reason Jews are not allowed to say “Never!” We’re expected to say “Oh yeah at some point our eternal right just evaporated.”” “we see that we’ve lost over 20,000 soldiers and citizens in our wars with those who would happily destroy us” When you illegally take other folks territory while attempting to dispossess them of course they’d happily destroy you Go moan to the Israeli Government! We were given given completely gratis 56% of Palestine for our Jewish People’s Homeland state more than enough territory for every Jewish person on the planet today What remained of Palestine was according to the Israeli Government of May 22nd 1948 “outside the State of Israel” … “in Palestine” Not Israeli “And we see that even with limited freedom of movement Hamas’ missiles improve in quality and lethalness every couple. This Wikipedia map is close but I would raise the southern border closer to Beer Sheba and lower the northern portion down to the gray line of the Litani: /wiki/Land_of_Israel#mediaviewer/File Re the practical side of these borders I would leave the southern Lebanese/the Gov’t of Lebanon (but not Hizbullah obviously) in de facto control unless they voted to fully join Israel Ditto for Taba (the small southeastern chunk of the Sinai Peninsula added in this border scheme) even if just 700 Egyptian resort employees. @talknic You keep posting propaganda nonsense! Why? —————————————— In a futile attempt to provide some balance in this echo chamber that you and your friends have constructed (“To publish a diversity of voices to promote dialogue on these important issues.” Flat out lie ) There is nothing in 476 that defines part of Jerusalem as the State of Palestine There is nothing that precludes it from finally being recognized as Israel by treaty It does refer to Arab territories (noticeably avoiding the of a State thereby admitting it is not Palestine) but I reject your RACIST conclusion that it therefore belongs. Amigo you’re the one that asked the cryptic question about where there might be an internationally recognized Jewish homeland With the map I was just trying to give some sort of answer The standard caveat in the corner is just to prevent testy people like you from attacking them for any errors The real point is that the UN voted Israel in as a country and recognizes its right to exist right where it is What is disputed is the status of the the West Bank the Gaza Strip the Golan Heights and East Jerusalem Now perhaps what you’re trying to say is that the international community never recognized the concept of a Jewish homeland per se Is that it? If so read the preamble and articles 2 & 4 of the League of Nations Mandate forPalestine which became the basis for the creation of Israel: . /20th_century Annie for your information I got that amazing factoid from my way-overtired brain Granted Hizbullah is supported by Iran and was at least initially trained by Iran but I don’t know what made me suddenly think the majority of fighters are Iranian I never thought that before and I assuredly won’t think that henceforth BTW I can believe there are a few Christians but I seriously doubt that’s a major factor It is after all a Shi’i Muslim operation Anyway I assure you I’m not a nut and I fully retract the part about Hizbullah being manned by Iranians However I stand by the rest of my post which I humbly suggest is worth reading or at least if you enjoy hearing opinions different from. This latter claim might sound dubious if you’ve never read it before but permit me to explain According to British census records (which I hold are overstated but that another time) there were some 1.2 million Arabs in 1948 If you look at population growth in other prolific communities like India and China you see that since then their populations have not yet quadrupled For example according to this chart – /Asia – India has gone from 350k to during that 66-year stretch Yet the Palestinians claim that today there are some 12 million Palestinians worldwide (e.g .org/article/66665) meaning a 10-fold increase! I see the NY Times as needlessly trumpeting a claim that the beneficial step of joining the ICC would be inherently adverse But this is mistaken since the Palestinians not the Israelis see it as beneficial So why would Rudoren and the NY Times want to portray joining the ICC as inherently threatening to Palestinians? You must be logged in to post a comment. After Ugarit many scholars attempted to link it somehow to Hebrew to backdate the origins of this language despite the fact that the connection to Arabic of the original Cana‛anite Southern Arabic and Ugaritic is more demonstrable if sounds are examined rather than merely the shapes of letters which are different from each original Cana‛anite had 28 signs and sounds Similarly Ugaritic had basically 28 sounds although it used cuneiform technology to etch 30 signs on clay tablets and wanted to distinguish the three alephs a-u-e Arabic today has 28 sounds Thus the sound systems of Arabic proto-Cana‛anite South Arabian and Ugaritic are basically identical Modern Arabic letters evolved differently and eventually the writing used the cursive joining of letters to. “page 76:Using ‘nationality’ and ‘citizenship’ in this article implied that both terms were synonymous” As they have been throughout the twentieth century Zofia you are doing a wonderful job here but do take a rest now and again I don’t want you to. “the Arabs maintained the occupation of the Jewish homeland and our dispossession and torture on and off for 1,400 years and the Arabs who live here now are settlers So why should we give them anything? So if we’re talking justice the Jews should get everything.” This is seriously loopy It is rather like arguing that the Angles Saxons Jutes and Vikings maintained the occupation of the Welsh homeland for 1,400 years and the people who live in England are settlers Welsh people like Shirley Bassey and Richard Burton have the right to take over Norwich and drive out people who were born there (Or should the Welsh reclaim their lost Celtic homeland on the Upper Danube and drive out the Germanic Slavic and Magyar settlers?) Ancient Palestine is where the Jewish religion originated It is the place where a bunch of ancient people who followed the Jewish religion lived Indeed many of the people living there now are their descendants. … It is theorized that some of these Hebrew sounds northwest Semitic varieties a somewhat incomplete theory These are specific adaptations in guessing that influenced pronunciation as in the vowel o/o(alif) common in modern Hebrew (as in the way Israelis changed ‛Akka to “Acco”) as well as the vowel e/e(alif) (as in the way the Naqab Desert has been made into “Negev” by the Israelis) in this case adding another transmission difference from the Western use of “Negeb” by having v for b (Hebrew signsfor v /b and f/p are the same except that dots were added later in the history of square Hebrew writing after the introduction of diacritical marks in Syriac and Arabic) READ IN HIS BOOK ABOUT: F/Pisgah In Hebrew the letter ‘pey’ resolves to a ‘fey’ (i.e an ‘F’ sound) when it is preceded by a vowel sound So for example Pharoah is Par’o but if the word before ends in a vowel sound then it’s Far’o To reflect this dual nature of the letter ‘pey’ early transliterators chose to use “ph” to represent the pey That’s why “Pelishti” was transliterated “Philistine” (with a Latin-based suffix to ). This isn’t about “peace making.” It’s not a war It’s about the steady inexorable process of stealing land and resources “redeeming the land,” aka “ethnic cleansing.” Talknic jews weren’t given a state they illegally seized one (O my people! Go into the holy land) the purified Damascus Palestine and parts of Jordan (which Allah hath ordained for you) which Allah has gifted to you and made it a bequest of your father Abraham (Turn not in flight) retreating (for surely ye turn back as losers) who are punished: Allah will take away from you the quails and honey: ?tMadhNo=0&tTafsirNo=73&tSoraNo=5&tAyahNo=21&tDisplay=yes&UserProfile=0&LanguageId=2 Annie you might want to be a little suspect about the reliability of Zofia’s sources For example she has been arguing that Arabic essentially predates Hebrew even though the earliest examples of Arabic date back to only the early 6th century CE while the earliest extant examples of Hebrew writings date back to the 10th century BCE That’s a 1,500-year difference — older than Islam itself — a difference that makes any attempt to claim Arabic as older at the very least eyebrow-raising if not patently absurd. Ideally I would want the world to recognize the definitive and minimalist Biblical borders which on the West is the Mediterranean Sea as south as Wadi El-Arish (“the River of Egypt” which is NOT the Nile) and as far north as the Litani River in southern Lebanon (despite attempts to identify more northerly points with Biblical s in practice archaeologists have shown that the Israelites did not settle north of the Litani so I presume my ancestors of yore knew the places that modern commentators and geographers can only speculate on) On the east the Jordan River of course along with the Golan on up to the southern line of the Litani. “i have a question for the Times What “concessions” …” 1 Jerusalem. Hey Everyone! it’s okay now it’s all okay Robert has just told us that China is even worse than Israel Phew! What a relief We can all stop now Mondoweiss can pack up and everyone can just forget about the Palestinians forever because the only reason anyone ever speaks about Israel-Palestine and the “Holy Land” is because they are anti semites How stupid of all of us wasting all of this time needlessly Let’s all go and have a fight with China instead Gee wow thanks Robert! Another paraphrase Robert in Israel Your map has Jerusalem in lem is not recognised as sovereign Israeli Territory by any nation except Israel which is evidenced by the absence of any Embassy of any other even the USA “Israel’s annexation of East Jerusalem in 1980 (see Jerusalem Law) and the Golan Heights in 1981 (see Golan Heights Law) has not been recognised by any other country.[11] United Nations Security Council Resolution 478 declared the annexation of Jerusalem “null and void” and required that it be rescinded United Nations Security Council Resolution 497 also declared the annexation of the Golan “null and void” /wiki/Israeli-occupied_territories Map you link to is therefore not the UN officially recognised map of Israel. The demand that there be a peace agreement before any RoR is considered is ridiculous Those who might realize their RoR to Israel are Israelis! /b3n4r7v9f8xit Meanwhile Israel was recognized while at war in territories the Israeli government of May 22nd 1948 claimed were “outside the State of Israel” … “in Palestine” /x1r0b4d1y6mkv “Likewise I believe in the Jewish right to self-determination” .push(Function() { proper_display('tvtropes_content_2'); }); Not Always Working contains examples of:    open/close all folders  The Times has been conducting a major propaganda campaign on the events of the past year in Ukraine See some of the recent articles in Consortium News ( ) an excellent independent news source as well as comments by Stephen Cohen professor of Russian Studies at Princeton (Cohen has been interviewed on Democracy Now! on this topic.) Times coverage of economics — with the exception of the columns of Paul Krugman — is less propagandistic than simply piss-poor See the comments of Dean Baker on his blog Beat the Press at Besides Noam Chomsky has taken the Times to task for decades for whitewash and propagrandistic coverage of just about every American intervention since Vietnam (and before) So yes there’s quite a bit of evidence of the Times’ propaganda efforts in a number. “now I’ve got an exercise for you Amigo Could you please post a pre-20th-century reference to the Palestinians? I’d appreciate that” RII Don,t be an idiot Talknic has already made several attempts to show you what Israel,s legal borders are Please read his posts and stop wasting our time with your links to spurious maps. @robert in Israel “When I say that “Israel has everything to lose” I’m speaking a psychological truth not an opinion that Israel is justified or not.” Perhaps your honest conversation wherein you resorted to calling could be advanced if you would define what a psychological truth is I understand some psychological issues I understand phobias I understand the fear of clowns open spaces people spiders I understand that they are all forms of mental illness which need counselling and treatment I can only assume you aren’t claiming that Israelis aren’t mentally ill Perhaps you are Feel free to correct me on that At the same time a psychological truth would imply that it is in the mind and not tangible or in the real world Israel is the oppressor Israel is a thief Please explain how we need to pander to their mentality in order to arrive at a peaceful and just solution to the situation. It would be a good idea for MW to collect them into a set of essays for a FAQ section here just for you bookmark it: /profile/zofia ;) By (Arts 12–13): The general rule is that the wife of a Palestinian is considered Palestinian and the wife of foreigner is considered a foreigner in line with Article 6 that stipulates that the wife takes the citizenship of the husband This general rule should however be read in the light of the following: The foreign woman who marries a Palestinian before 25 July 1939 (entry in force of the Palestinian Nationality Order (Amendment) of 1939) becomes Palestinian After that date the High Commissioner may provide a naturalisation certificate request By permission (Arts 12(6) 14) Ah it’s the Palestinians who can give Jerusalem to the Israelis? I did not. “Justice can take a back seat to peace if there is sufficient justice in the compromise between the two.” By this I mean that if I saw a chance for real peace I would give up on what I see as justice for the Jews (the entirety of the Holy Land) OTOH we could get “peace” by just leaving the Middle East en masse but that degree of injustice is to great to be satisfied with the peace it would bring I know the Palestinians feel the same way on this latter point but I’m not sure how many are willing to make a permanent peace involving less than their own maximalist dreams. Did I ever claim that Palestine is a modern term? Read more carefully I said that when the term “Palestinians” was used prior to the 20th century (and really prior to 1950) it was almost always used in reference to the Jews or occasionally to the foreign residents of Palestine I believe a few times it appears as referring to all residents But when not referring to the Jews it was never used to refer to any national group much less the local Arabic-speakers So when you see the term “Palestine” in an old reference remember that back then it meant the Jewish national homeland Here’s a good example from a classic commentary on. @ Robert in Israel ” and yes the Holy Land is the homeland of the Jewish nation and has been for at least 3,300 years” An interesting historical snippet However Israel’s boundaries were proclaimed and recognized as the Israel Government asked to be recognized . /20th_century Israel has not legally acquired any further territories What lay “outside the State of Israel” … “in Palestine” is simply not Israeli So take your whining to the Zionist Federation and the Jewish Agency they screwed it for Jewish Israelis who are prohibited from living anywhere in the Jewish People’s Historic homeland except within Israel’s actual proclaimed and recognized boundaries. “re the practical side of these borders I would leave the southern Lebanese/the Gov’t of Lebanon (but not Hizbullah obviously) in de facto control unless they voted to fully join Israel.” Robert please you do not have the right to tell other people who should be their representatives But even if I agreed that you have that right given the quality of leadership in Israel I don’t think the Jews there are qualified to pick other people’s political talent So ACTUALLY ARABIC WITH “F” IS THE CORRECT ONE… THE “P” WAS GIVEN THROUGH BAD TRANSLATION… ;D WHY THE ISSUE? PROBLEM WITH SOUNDS… AGAIN: …It is one of the irritating and inaccurate conventions of scholarship both Western and Israeli to transcribe inscriptions in South Arabian (which like modern Arabic has 28 signs) Cana‛anite/Phoenician and Aramaic using the 22-letter “square Hebrew” (square Aramaic really as I explain later and in Chapters 1. “for some reason my post got printed above your question not below.”robert in israel For some reason the link you provide leads to a 3x 4 blank you insist I have no problems recognising those borders. To qualify for Palestinian nationality in virtue of 30 Article the individual had to meet two conditions He or she should first be a Turkish citizen or ly such a person had to be habitually resident (‘établis’ or established in the authentic French version) in Palestine as of 6 August 1924 the day on whichthe Treaty of Lausanne came into being In other words residents in Palestine who had no Ottoman nationality (i.e foreign citizens or stateless persons) had no right to become Palestinian citizens Similarly Ottoman citizens residing outside Palestine on the above date were not deemed to be Palestinians An exception to the latter provision applied to those individuals who were born in Palestine and fell under Article 34 of the Treaty. Besides Article 7 of the Mandate a definition of Palestinian nationality can be found in two key Orders—Palestine Order in Council (Constitution) and Legislative Election Order—and other lower-level legislation The Palestine Order in Council was both substantively and administratively regarded as a Constitution provided a functional definition of the term ‘foreigner’ Article 59 paragraph 1 defined a ‘foreigner’ as “any person who is a national or subject of a European or American State or of Japan but shall not include: (i) Native inhabitants of a territory protected by or administered under a mandate granted to a European State (ii) Ottoman subjects (iii) Persons who have lost Ottoman nationality and have not acquired any other nationality” This definition confirmed that the inhabitants of Palestine were still Ottoman citizens but protected by a European state (i.e Britain). More food for thought hopknee “It was the explicit recognition of the criminal nature of the “transfer directly or indirectly by the Occupying Power of parts of its own civilian population into the territory it occupies” (Article 8.2. ) which led Israel to vote in 1998 against the adoption of the Rome Statute Israel’s chief delegate at Rome Eli Nathan said “can it really be held that such an action as that listed in Article 8 above really ranks among the most heinous and serious war crimes especially as compared to the other genuinely heinous ones listed in Article 8?” By recognizing the de facto presence of foreign Jews in Palestine the nationality provisions of the Plan recognized the pre-existing facts in Palestine However while the provisions admitted certain rules of international law relating to state succession they generally ignored the domestic nationality law applicable in Palestine (i.e the Palestinian Citizenship Order of 1925 and its amendments).Obviously the Plan attached greater importance to the Arab race and to the Jewish religion (both political criteria) than to the bond of nationality (a legal criterion) as bases for the future nationalities in the projected post-Palestine entities Happily the existence of a distinct Palestinian nationality was not denied in principle. If we deal with the period from Napoleon to Hitler there were indeed moves in Western Europe and America in particular to accept the Jew as an individual of a different faith but this ideation of the Jew as citizen with a faith that we choose to regard as an eccentricity rather than an essence this idea was nowhere near universal (global) and it was not nearly predominant particularly in regions with the highest concentration of large Jewish populations further to the east There Jews were considered ethnically different. I know you won’t read those books…but somebody. Also unlike dkos we don’t publish reams of bandwidth debating comment policy or moderation here it clogs the threads and is distracting it’s rather non negotiable sans contacting adam or phil this echo chamber that you and your friends have constructed you’re free to leave anytime there must be something about us you like or perhaps you just prefer environments for masochistic reasons but you can’t win here the deck is stacked against you because we have truth on our. “a better comparison would be if American Indians demanded being returned to their ancestral homelands that they were kicked out of … Ditto for the Aborigines and Australia.” Well both the American Indians and the Australian Aborigines live in countries where it is recognized that they were wronged and where they now have full rights as equal citizens Let’s see Israel follow. And I’m glad you want a unified state in Palestine though that will only come when Israeli Jews recognize the wrong they have done and accept that Palestinians have equal right to live there “But they will not have national rights … Civil rights are not the same as national rights.” Could you explain (a) what you mean by “national rights” and (b) why Palestinians will not. @piotr re “negotiations [dialogue] of an arse with a whip” interesting and certainly an apt expression As for “painful concessions,” for as long as I can recall the pain and the concessions have been very much one-sided. “call it speculation but my personal analysis of Palestinian intransigence regarding Israel’s red lines is that their overarching goal is Israel’s destruction precisely as stated in both the Fatah Charter and the Hamas Charter” A) Your personal analysis is based on propaganda bullsh*te B) Article Thirty-One: “As to those who have not borne arms against you on account of religion nor turned you out of your dwellings Allah forbiddeth you not to deal kindly with them and to behave justly towards them; for Allah loveth those who act justly.” Oh and finally Robert all of your continual colonial activities and continued land theft and all of your several hundred thousand nutty settlers have made the 2 state solution totally impossible anyway so at some point it’s going to be one state for everyone And you know Robert the gracious dignified humble and incredible people known as the Palestinians will accept it and they will live with you in peace side by side even after all of the unspeakable things you and yours have done to them over the decades But your brain simply cannot believe that because you are programmed and brainwashed to be a racist paranoid supremacist who does not consider the Palestinians to have the same value as Jews It’s as simple. A number of problems arise when someone wades around in Zionist bullsh*te then puts both their feet in their gaping wailgob 1) The of the mandate for example is “The League of Nations Mandate for Palestine“ and throughout the entire document there is no mention of a Jewish ‘state’ 2) First line refers to the provisional recognition of Palestinian statehood per the LoN Covenant Article 22 . /20th_century #art22 “You’ll see that the international community explicitly recognized the right of the Jews to reconstitute its national home the most explicit quote being from the preamble”” Oh well I didn’t think you intended on having a serious and respectful discussion but I tried You are the one who has chosen to be brainwashed so of course everyone who disagrees with you sounds brainwashed to their position Be well and just so you can enjoy your chosen allegiance. Zofia I’ll just repeat what I just posted for Annie Claiming that Arabic is more similar to Ugaritic than Hebrew simply because its alphabet is more similar is just like saying that if comparing English and Ugaritic to Hebrew English is the more closely related of the two because its alphabet is more similar That of course is absurd and so is claiming Arabic more similar to Ugaritic than Hebrew Even a beginner linguist knows that establishing similarities between languages is based on the meanings of their word roots and not their alphabets Phonology is closely related to alphabetic values so it too is a very distant second or third place behind root meanings. Don’t you get it?? The Palestinians who have American citizenship don’t plan on giving up their dream of returning to Palestine Even the ones who want to stay in America say that wherever Palestinians are they should be allowed to return Ask a Palestinian when their national right to Palestine ends and he’ll say “Never!” But for some mysterious reason Jews are not allowed to say “Never!” We’re expected to say “Oh yeah at some point our eternal right just evaporated.” Sorry I’ll never agree to that absurd double standard Every generation of Jews whether in the Holy Land or in the Diaspora always dreamed of the restoration of Jewish sovereignty in the Holy Land The fact that we were oppressed and powerless only explains why it took so long; it does not justify the ripping away of our homeland. Why do European and American Arabs claim they have a right of return and a right of sovereignty in the Holy Land? Just because their great-grandfather once lived there? The Palestinians proudly proclaim that they will never give up their claims no matter how long they live outside Palestine Why is that OK but not for the Jews? Your comparison to Viking invaders doesn’t work A better comparison would be if American Indians demanded being returned to their ancestral homelands that they were kicked out of I support such claims Ditto for the Aborigines and Australia. 44 – Obviously the main objective of regulating nationality according to this article [7] was to turn immigrant Jews into Palestinian citizens This came as a logical consequence to the overall goal of the Palestine Mandate: to create a Jewish national home in the territory 93 – The overall purpose of the regulation of Palestinian nationality from 1917 through 1925 and the years that followed has been to bring to Palestine as many Jews as possible and to reduce the number of Palestine’s Arabs as much as possible – a policy that is still in place today Link to the full article: .org/6405 About that “summer war” I replied: link to About Khaled Meshal speech: /2014/12/caroline-palestinian-refugees#comment-732791 A must read about talks with Hamas etc /2012/12/what-to-make-of-khaled- and . /publication/22373 More in rest of the comments. @ robert your seriously going to bring up the native americans? you do realize the native tribes are pro palestinian they know who the indeginous people are and its not you in your stolen house so I ask why is it ok for some native population in your mind to get there land back but not the native population you currently support the occupation and disspossesion of because as a jew of assumingly european orgin you are not native and have zero claim to palestine its irrelevant before the law i fully understand you and the rest of warcriminal terrorist country men’s motives I’m a student of history you’d be wise to be one too tyrant conquerors usually meet bloody ends and they always end. Reasonable unapologetic rightwing Zionist Jew is an oxymoron Zofia – this is amazing I’m in absolute awe of your erudition Lots for me. Like it or not the UN voted for Israel and continues to host Israel as a member nation Why is insisting that Palestinians not call for genocide “ludicrous”? Do you think it’s OK? I too believe that one day there will be a single state The Muslims will have accepted the Quran’s statements about Allah’s designating the Holy Land for the Jews and the Palestinians cum Israeli Arabs will have full political and religious rights just as guaranteed in the current Israeli Declaration of Independence But they will not have national rights nor will they even want to assert such rigthts just as I wouldn’t assert national rights if I chose to live in Jordan or Egypt Civil rights are not the same as national rights Just ask the Qataris who are the minority in their own country but the sole sovereigns So I second the song you posted Mariapalestina; a true change is. 1) Jerusalem is legally a part of the Arab territories according to the binding Laws emphasized in UNSC res 476 and; corpus separatum was never instituted and; Israel’s territorial acquisitions by war and its unilateral annexations of non-Israeli territory acquired by war are ALL illegal! You keep posting propaganda nonsense! Why? Israel’s investigations fizzle into nothing Any criminal that has perpetrated crimes against an Arab is treated like a privileged citizen and never held accountable for any crime It is indeed all a farce a false show of fooling the world it is so concerned about the crime that it adheres to international laws and holds endless internal investigations We know how far that goes Time these international bodies ignored these stalling tactics did not allow the US to influence them and independently continued their investigations which should end with holding the criminals accountable. Thank you too Just not only for your wonderful humanity but for your ceaseless energy and determination Very inspiring Although the Palestine Mandate authorized Britain to pass a law on Palestinian nationality the enactment of such a law was delayed for three years This late enactment was questioned at the international level In 1922 the Permanent Mandate Commission of the League of Nations asked Britain inter alia whether it had enacted a nationality law The Commission also enquired as to whether that law had been framed in such a way as to facilitate the acquisition of Palestinian citizenship by Jews whose permanent residence in Palestine was in accordance with Article 7 of the Mandate It seems that Britain preferred to wait until it had first acquired a full legal basis for its presence in the country by concluding a peace agreement with Turkey the legitimate sovereign over Palestine. @ robert that 200 was a typo and what muslims arab occupiers how can the native population occupy their own land when islam conquered palestine it conquered the native arab inhabitants the arabs aren’t occupiers and jews never tried to come back they never tried to live their they left and never attempted to come back until the 1900’s and the muslim world protected its jewish citizens for the most part until the zionist invasion and conquest in 1948 and no jews weren’t alway recognized as a nation because nations only came into being as and idea around 200 years ago jews have always been viewed as preciesely what they are a religion. It’s relevant if you want to correctly predict how we are likely to react to various actions A thief who believes he’s a thief acts one way while those who believe they are the ones who have been robbed will act quite differently. These are the war crimes of “Extensive destruction and appropriation of property not justified by military necessity and carried out unlawfully and wantonly” (Article 8.2. ) and of “Destroying or seizing the enemy’s property unless such destruction or seizure be imperatively demanded by the necessities of war” (Article 8.2. ) It is difficult to see what defense any indicted Israeli political or military commanders can rely in the face of these charges /content/what-would-happen-if-palestine-joined-international-criminal-court/13783 The “pro-Israeli” position is that the Palestinians must agree to Israeli demands that Palestinians mus have no army and since Palestinians don’t agree and Israelis have no compulsion to make peace then negotiations are deadlocked If Palestinians do accept Israeli demands what is to say that the settler movement will stop and so will other abuses? The Israeli government and the international community has done such a good job blocking the settlers and protecting Palestinians’ rights so far that when Palestinians take the step of agreeing that the Israeli government can have total military control block the refugees and everything else that there will be no question of stopping the settler movement and protecting Palestinian rights Right? The “pro-Israeli”/Dennis Ross/Rudoren position is at best naive about Palestinians’ rights But they already downplay abuses of Palestinians and the NAKBA so it’s not surprising. I’d say the early UNRWA reports of massive joining of food rations lists by Arabs in Jordan and Syria especially probably continued for some time and that phenomenon is largely responsible for the current numbers I think there also continues to be politicized over-reporting but however you slice it a very significant percentage of Palestinians have no roots whatsoever in Palestine behond their UNRWA ration cards In any case my point here is that even on a purely secular level the Jews have a much stronger claim to the Land of Israel / Palestine than the Arabs who now identify themselves as Palestinians But I would agree that the religious claim is much clearer and much more definitive — all things. Israel which has already undertaken 13 criminal investigations of its military’s behavior during this summer’s war with Palestinian militants in the Gaza Strip could also deter the International Criminal Court by proving its own justice system deals seriously with suspected offenders Don’t bet on it Consider how well these investigations have gone in the past Remember the Gaza onslaught of ’08-09 when hundreds of Palestinian civilians were killed and the world demanded accountability (of both Israeli and Palestinian forces)? Human Rights Watch tells us: To date neither Israel nor Hamas has held the perpetrators of these violations to account despite recommendations… that Israel and Hamas conduct credible independent investigations. I’m just glad not in hint of self-interest special pleading or self-dealing exists in any of “Robert in Israel’s” arguments The way he continually argues points in which victory of his point of view means great sacrifice is quite inspiring Or maybe every goddam thing “Robert in Israel” said can be covered by one little sentence: “Well yeah you would say that!” Okay “Robert in Israel” just kidding But I’m telling you if you can get past the point that you get a free country if you win your arguments are very effective! (I’m glad I got back here to see “Zofia” and “talknic” go to town stepping high wide and handsome!) Israeli textbooks…Actually israeli textbooks leave much to be desired when it comes to presenting others etc So don’t go just talking about Palestinian textbooks! 1.“Victims of Our Own Narratives?” Portrayal of the “Other” in Israeli and Palestinian School Books” Council of Religious Institutions of the Holy Land 2013 types and Prejudice in Conflict: Representations of Arabs in Israeli Jewish Society by Daniel Bar-Tal and Yona Teichman 3. -Tal D & Schnell I (Eds.) (2012) The Impacts of Lasting Occupation: Lessons from Israeli Society 4 Palestine in Israeli School Books: Ideology and Propaganda in Education by Nurit Peled-Elhanan The Election Order defined the term ‘Palestinian citizens’ Article 2 stipulated that “the following persons shall be deemed to be Palestinian citizens… Turkish subjects habitually resident in the territory of Palestine at the date of commencement of this Order” Although it was provided for the purpose of the legislative election this definition had in fact established the future status of those individuals who would henceforth beregarded as Palestinian nationals (“Turkish subjects habitually resident in Palestine”) Thus as some rightly observed this definition constituted a practical amendment to the Ottoman Nationality. Stop reading the NYTimes! I avoid all mainstream media I can’t take the lies anymore Eventually if enough of us leave their viewing or reading pool they will have to change. Partition Plan had merely declared the legal rules relating to the future nationalities in the Arab State and the Jewish State; it did not create these nationalities Jerusalem: Thus Palestinian citizens as well as foreigners of all nationalities who were residing at the time in Jerusalem were eligible to be Jerusalem’s nationals By the end of 1944 the settled population in Jerusalem numbered 240,880 Of this number 140,530 persons were Arabs (96,760 Muslims and 43,770 Christians) 100,200 were Jews (both Palestinian and foreign) and there were 150 exact number of non-Jews and non-Arab foreigners was unknown. Roman Aelia Capitolina period Palestine in according to Ptolemy (map by Claude Reignier Conder of the Palestine Exploration Fund) Undated Classical inscription from Constantinople published by George Dousa in 1599 mentioning “Syriae Palaisteinae”[80] And what’s with that Palestinian Mandate was for Jews meme?? In the Mandatory text and in the reports made by the British Mandatory power Palestine was regarded as a territorial unit set apart from others Besides the Ottoman citizens who are considered Palestinians or who can apply for Palestinian citizenship in line with international law on the succession of states Palestinian citizenship can be acquired by birth naturalisation or permission SO ARABS IN PALESTINE WHO WERE OTTOMAN CITIZENS WERE PALESTINIANS IF YOU LIKE IT OR NOT! LOCAL JEWS TOO THE PROBLEM WAS: WHAT TO DO WITH JEWISH IMMIGRANTS THAT WEREN’T OTTOMAN CITIZENS?? AND HERE THE FUN BEGINS: Palestinian citizenship under the British Mandate: About the “p” should be “f.”-In his subchapter: Misleading Transcriptions: This arbitrary and biased practice is also what Gitin et al practice as they try to decipher the Philistine/“Phoenician” inscription from ‛Aqrun introducing the notion of a “Hebreo-Philistine” script In another instance of fixation on Hebrew and the use of a Western linguistic tradition in application to regional place and personal s a king mentioned in the inscription is called “Padi” (the consonants p and f have the same sign in Hebrew except for a dot mark introduced later in history) An obvious “Semitic” would be Fadi (which means “one who sacrifices”) In this case the should be transcribed at least to posit both possibilities as F/Padi although f is more natural in this case (see later section on f/p).-SOMETHING FOR YOU HERE ;D SEE THAT SECTION! @ robert there is no double standard jews were premitited to come and live in palestine for close to 200 years they lost the right to claim it because the chose to abbadon it the palestine right continues because unlike they jews conquerors they want to go back and are forcibly prevent from returning to their homeland and excercizing their legal sovreignty over the territory.